>>620 >Why can't you install 7? In short; the computer is pre-built with "custom-made" hardware that's unrecognizable to any Windows version except 10. Not only that, as >>623 said it requires a certain revision of 10 to work. The seller told me that this is due to some agreement between the manufacturer and M$, to basically ensure "nobody goes back" to earlier Windows versions. >I'm looking into building a new computer Just make sure the manufacturer(s) of the various parts support Windows 7 with drivers, so you don't end up in the same boat. I would build my own computer honestly, and perhaps even assemble it in the old "pizzabox" orientation so it fits better on my desk, but the market for custom builds is so niche where I live that it's just not feasible. >What I'm worried about is when literally nothing supports 7 anymore Don't worry, sane developers will keep supporting 7. Anyone who's not a M$ shill knows that 10 is a pain to use, let alone develop for, and offers no real advantages over 7 which will remain a modern fully-functioning OS for eons to come... So unless you need to run very modern games or the absolute latest version of "popular" software, you'll be fine. >>623 >I wasn't going to install an OS that had already passed end-of-life It's not like 10 is any more secure than EOL 7, in fact 10 continues to have its own unique security problems with every new update. I'm slowly coming to the realization that no Windows is truly secure, especially nowadays. >I need to keep up to date and use certain hardware/software for some of the things I do Could you give some examples? >It'll probably all come crashing down at some point when 10 updates in the future JUST pirate Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC. You'll only get critical non-OS-breaking security updates, which are few and far between, and you can even disable them completely until you feel like it. It's not perfect but it beats regular 10.

>>614 >>620 >But with continued usage of these OS I found that all the bells and whistles only got in the way of performance, especially in the case of Vista/7 which came with Aero. As much as I love the Luna theme, I seem to always ended up going back to the classic 9x look. It's not that I even like it better necessarily, but the 9x style is simpler and more aesthetically versatile. For instance, I feel like you need the Bliss desktop background to get the complete look, and I don't always want to do that. All the gray and blue that the 9x line used seems more subdued. >Why? Absolutely nothing good will come out of this; your PC will go into update loops when you need it most and then come out on the other side with your data wiped. If you have the option to use Windows 7 or earlier, do it... >JUST. for what purpose? I had 10 on the laptop I bought and I wanted to kill myself. I installed 7 and now I have had no issues for years. Because my computer wouldn't let me install Windows 7. I was going to dual boot with Linux Mint but ended up running into a hardware compatibility issue somewhere along the line, if I remember right. This was my last choice. I even tried Windows 8.1, which was terrible. Linux Mint for me was most of the way there, but the music software is garbage compared to what's available to Windows. There are also a few games I couldn't get to run under WINE or Proton. While I would've preferred sticking with Windows 7, I honestly haven't had many problems with Windows 10 other than the UI (which might be because installing W10Privacy was one of the first things I did). >One can hope ReactOS is a bit farther along by then... ReactOS being able to replicate Windows 7 would be a dream come true. >>623 >I've installed a shitload of things to make it more like 7, like StartIsBack, OldNewExplorer, a variety of tools to disable all the telemetry and other cancer, and hax to bring back the old clock/calendar, calculator, explorer search, etc. I might have to look into some of these.

>>627 >the music software is garbage compared to what's available to Windows What programs are you currently using on Windows? I did do some research so I might be able to help you find a good alternative on Linux. >There are also a few games I couldn't get to run under WINE or Proton. I have not personally tried this but maybe look into setting up a Windows VM for gaming with GPU passthrough: https://mathiashueber.com/windows-virtual-machine-gpu-passthrough-ubuntu/

I wish I could try the computer in pic related. I have no idea if the UI would even look or feel good in real life, but that photo just makes the system look very comfy. Even the keyboard is colored. It reminds me of older computers like Commodore 64, when everything wasn't standardized to hell. I miss CRTs. I only started using LCDs a couple of years ago because my last working CRT broke.

>>628 >What programs are you currently using on Windows? I did do some research so I might be able to help you find a good alternative on Linux. I've already gone through a bunch, but thanks for the offer. I have specific setups for both making music and listening to it and I'd just be killing my workflow and listening experience by using anything but Windows. >I have not personally tried this but maybe look into setting up a Windows VM for gaming with GPU passthrough: I'm not willing to put that much effort into things like this when Windows just werks for me.

>>629 >I wish I could try the computer in pic related Chances are you can find one still in operation inside a small shop somewhere, wouldn't advice leaving the house though... I used computers like these for years, and honestly don't miss them. They all had annoyances that were ironed out by newer models. For example, keyboard keys were too protruded, and made an awfully loud sound when pressed. Mice had a moving ball inside that needed regular cleaning, because it keeps gathering dust around it, messing with the motion detection. All peripherals in general were connected via PS/2 instead of USB, and plugging them was a pain in the ass, because you had to be very careful aligning the needle-thin pins with their holes, else you risk breaking the whole thing when you finally push it into the port. The computer itself was loud as hell, you could hear the fan whirring as if cooling some kind of industrial machine. CRTs were eye straining when used for long, and easily got burn-ins if the screen was not refreshed frequently enough. In extreme cases the burn-in was so bad it remains visible even with the monitor off, which is why screen "savers" were invented in the first place! In conclusion, you're not missing much. >I have no idea if the UI would even look or feel good in real life, but that photo just makes the system look very comfy If you really wanna try some exotic UIs, fire up Virtualbox and install any of the lesser known OS from the 1990s. Pics related: - OS/2 Warp 3 - NeXTStep 3 - Solaris 8 Or try these DOS shells: - DESQView X - GeoWorks

>>635 If a CRT gives you eye strain, there is a chance you didn't configure it properly. At 60Hz they are a pain, but many displays work fine at 75Hz.

>>623 I think I still have some time anyway. All the software I use works on 7 in general. I still use XP too so I'm totally fine using 7. I also want to build a new PC so I'm looking into what parts I can get and get 7 to run on them. I'm also considering running a very minimal maybe even just a command line version of some linux distro and using win7 virtually. I heard some things about KVM which is supposed to have GPU passthrough and near bare metal performance so it might be an option as well. >>626 >In short; the computer is pre-built with "custom-made" hardware that's unrecognizable to any Windows version except 10. fucking gay. wow. Also it seems to me that the distinction between 10 and 7 is very artificial. Windows 98 to XP, sure. it's a whole new OS that's not DOS based. XP to 7, a bit less different, but still feels like a big change. 7, 8, and 10 just seem like iterative versions that only get shittier. the only positive changes I've seen in 10 that I know of are just little stupid features that have nothing to do with the OS. Oh, here's a multiple desktops feature. Ok, we could already install a program to do that anyway. stuff like that. As far as end of life goes, I really don't give a fuck. I've made credit card payments and accessed my bank through my XP computer (with a private VPN though) which some may say is irresponsible... but at the time I just had to do it. Don't do it normally though. And I have not updated 7 for years. When I install 7 I get all my updates, then I remove a ton of them I don't want, then I disable updates permanently. So "end of life" means absolutely nothing to me. If I have to use 10 I will pirate one of the less shit versions though. >>627 >As much as I love the Luna theme, I seem to always ended up going back to the classic 9x look. me too. I do like the classic look and sometimes when I'm in the mood I'll switch back but I end up liking classic better. For example right now, I have my XP laptop (an old T40) actually being very useful and running a 3d print job. bit of a tangent here but it feels good putting it to good use. anyway I have the classic theme on it with the "ascent" mountain background and the plum color scheme. top comfy IMO >Because my computer wouldn't let me install Windows 7 how so? I'm looking into these new AMD processors and you can kind of do some tricks to install 7. > Linux Mint for me was most of the way there, but the music software is garbage compared to what's available to Windows. the problem for me with linux is a big one. (linux) people always assume windows users just don't know about computers in general. So when you want a linux distro that would be easy to use coming from windows, they just say use Mint or whatever. Sure, the desktop environment looks like windows but that to me is beside the point. I can easily figure out how to configure any desktop to function pretty much how I'm used to, but for me it's just how the OS works in general that I can't get used to. If I were a granny who just clicks on a browser to browse faceberg I'd have no problem, unfortunately I'm a middle of the road "power user" who knows and is used to, for the most part, how to navigate windows and how it works. so that's my main thing with linux and why I can't use it, even if it is Mint. as far as music programs I have always used Winamp on Windows, and when I'm using linux I just use "qmmp" which works with my favorite winamp skins. >>631 > I have specific setups for both making music oh. I doubt stuff for making music is available much on linux. or if it is it's probably dogshit. At least that's how it is with CAD programs. the only competent ones are on Windows.

>>640 >I'm also considering running a very minimal maybe even just a command line version of some linux distro and using win7 virtually Now that would be a dream, but of course a very "unorthodox" reason to use linux lol. If you ever manage to do that consider writing a how-to for simpletons. >7, 8, and 10 just seem like iterative versions that only get shittier You hit the nail right on the head. I would add that 8 & 10 feel like Frankenstein monsters made out of the butchered body parts of 7. For example with 8 they tried to force the metro interface with its incomplete settings "app" on users, but underneath it was the classic explorer and control panel which was still 100% functional. Then with 10 they doubled down on metro and "integrated" it with classic explorer creating a hybrid monstrosity, and removed entire applets from the control panel to force users to use the settings app, which was still incomplete and frequently called the removed classic applets anyway!.. It's a very incoherent experience. >I have my XP laptop (an old T40) actually being very useful and running a 3d print job Surprised to know that XP has 3D printing software, very cool! What are you printing? (if you don't mind me asking) >but for me it's just how the OS works in general that I can't get used to >unfortunately I'm a middle of the road "power user" who knows and is used to, for the most part, how to navigate windows and how it works. Exactly! That's me right there... For example I can use the command line occasionally for specific tasks, but I can't depend on it primarily, especially when it comes to installing software. I like the ease-of-use of installers, and how they're "portable" because they come with all dependencies bundled-in. But I also like having self-contained conf files and a clean registry. I can take a setup EXE and run it on a disconnected fresh installation of Windows and get a 100% functional program, but AFAIK linux doesn't do it that way. Maybe it can, but I really can't tell. Another thing that comes to mind is how directories work in linux, and which / folder to use for what, and which / folder to put on a different partition because apparently that's a thing.

>>640 >how so? I'm looking into these new AMD processors and you can kind of do some tricks to install 7. If I remember right, it was a USB-port-related problem. My computer has nothing but USB 3.0 ports, and the Windows 7 installer didn't seem to recognize anything. >If I were a granny who just clicks on a browser to browse faceberg I'd have no problem, unfortunately I'm a middle of the road "power user" who knows and is used to, for the most part, how to navigate windows and how it works. so that's my main thing with linux and why I can't use it, even if it is Mint. You hit the nail on the head there. Linux is fine for both casual users and hardcore autists, but if you fall between those extremes and have specific needs then you're out of luck. I can't stand the superiority complex that so many neckbeards seem to have about using Linux. It's neat and all, but it's also going to feel counterintuitive for middle-of-the-road computer users, and Linux zealots like to hand-wave away criticisms from those filthy Windows-using subhumans while wondering why desktop Linux hasn't caught on yet. >as far as music programs I have always used Winamp on Windows, and when I'm using linux I just use "qmmp" which works with my favorite winamp skins. I stick to foobar2000 for all its customization options. I keep a bunch of playlist tabs open all the time and drop the music I want to listen to into one of them according to vague personal categories rather than having a single massive playlist to scroll through. One of the tabs has well over a thousand track, and I have some of them saved so I can just load them right up when the time comes to reinstall my operating system. There are somewhat similar programs on Linux, but the music libraries had to load every time I opened up the program. That took forever given how huge my music collection is. There's foobnix, but I hazily recall running into a few problems with that one. The fact that it didn't recognize foobar2000 playlists might have been one of them. >oh. I doubt stuff for making music is available much on linux. or if it is it's probably dogshit. At least that's how it is with CAD programs. the only competent ones are on Windows. There's LMMS, but it's not exactly a fully featured alternative to something like FL Studio. You can't even just plug in a guitar and start playing either, even if you want to waste time screwing around with JACK. I think I had might have had FL Studio 11 (the version I stick to) working through PlayOnLinux years, but it's going to have shortcomings if it wasn't made to run natively through Linux. >>642 >Another thing that comes to mind is how directories work in linux, and which / folder to use for what, and which / folder to put on a different partition because apparently that's a thing. Yup. I'm sure for computer wizards it has its advantages, but the directory system is a confusing mess for the average person.

>>642 >Surprised to know that XP has 3D printing software, very cool! What are you printing? (if you don't mind me asking) I have a cheap chinese crappy printer and I managed to find a printer host that worked on XP. It's called "repetier-host". it works just fine. I was printing some custom PC parts for a guy I know. I too am comfortable with the command line. But in Windows, not linux. I have no problems using it when it suits the task, one that comes to mind is using youtube-dl, for example. Or backing up things using rclone. But I like installers as well like you said. One thing I like to do on my Windows systems is in the "Program Files" folder, I make a new folder titled "#Installers", and it sits at the top of the listing. Whenever I download an installer I save it to that folder, then install it to program files. If I ever need to reinstall something, I have all my installer files saved in that folder for me. and I can easily copy them over to a new computer and quickly install everything. I really hate how linux organizes it's folders. It's literally based on what Dennis Ritchie put together for his specific machine in the '70s and what he did moving stuff around when he got a new disk. It makes no sense to exist today. Also llinux being derived from a multi-user OS is how it is, whereas for our use case, it's a single user PC, not a mainframe. So the multi-user aspects of linux feel more like a hindrance to personal computing in my opinion. Where you have the "user" who is treated like an idiot and you can just use what's in your home directory, and that's separate from the 'root' user. Whereas in Windows those roles are merged into one and to me it feels more comfortable. Even in DOS I feel a lot more at home than linux. like, here's my computer, here are the files in MY computer, I don't need to get permission from anyone, I can put anything where the hell I want. In linux every program you install is done so that it takes the program, breaks it into pieces, and throws all the shit all over the system. Windows does some stuff like that putting junk in "app data" folders but it's not as bad as linux. if it were up to me, every program should install into it's own separate folder in a Programs folder. no app data junk either. And for sure nothing like all the /usr/local /local /etc all that crap in linux. it's such a pain trying to figure out where some config file should be on your own system. so the folders thing is a big problem to me as far as using linux. I hear Gobo Linux actually tries to simplify things in this regard. >Now that would be a dream, but of course a very "unorthodox" reason to use linux lol. If you ever manage to do that consider writing a how-to for simpletons. if I ever do figure out such a thing I'll probably write about it, yes. But I have no clue what I'm doing right now anyway.

>>643 >If I remember right, it was a USB-port-related problem. My computer has nothing but USB 3.0 ports, and the Windows 7 installer didn't seem to recognize anything. depending on specifics it may be possible to bypass this. for example, using PS/2 keyboard/mouse when installing, slipstreaming new USB drivers into the 7 installer, and burning it onto optical instead of a USB stick. >Linux is fine for both casual users and hardcore autists, but if you fall between those extremes and have specific needs then you're out of luck. yes, exactly. I'm not a programming type. if I were then linux would be better for me. I'm technically minded and can use a computer but I'm not willing to spend my time on the computer to get it to do what I want. I want to get to my work. I've heard of foobar2000 but never used it, I'm just too used to Winamp and I really like my classic skins. for me it's the be all end all of music players haha >PlayOnLinux seems like a bit of a kludge in the end IMO. compared to just using it normally. >but the directory system is a confusing mess for the average person. kind of double posting here but here's what it should look like in my opinion. first, I much prefer the Win/DOS method of being more physically representative of disks and drives. each storage device should be seen as a separate device in the OS. in Linux I know it's more complex than what I'm making it out to be, but I don't like how it's so abstract about devices. so let's say you have a single disk, on this disk really should be only 2 mandatory directories: System, and Programs. in the System directory will just be the OS files and things it needs for a basic installation and basic functionality--basically the Windows folder. In linux I believe the files that would be in such a directory are just scattered all over the place. IMO most users should not need to poke around in these files but can if they want to. The programs folder is where user installed programs go. simple as. And that's it, the user is free to create directories other than these as they see fit. For example, I might make additional Music, Images, and Documents folders, or something like that. The user can organize as they see fit. I never did like how Windows had "libraries" like My Documents and stuff like that. Just let me see the actual directories. And honestly I would like to do away with the idea of "users". How often is a PC used for multiple people? I have never used one of my PERSONAL devices for multiple people. So why should I have to deal with a Users folder separate from the system? for me, they should be one and the same. >I can't stand the superiority complex that so many neckbeards seem to have about using Linux. jesus christ. yes. I actually had some linux autist on another site tell me that the command line is faster for every single task on a computer. which I hope it's obvious that it's not, given the existence of things like FL studio or Paint, or any design program. How are you going to draw something without a GUI? it makes no sense. And he still tried to argue the command line is faster for these things. Another time I had some guys tell me that "real work" isn't done on Windows, when I told them that the computer they used to make their post was designed by an engineer using a CAD package on a Windows computer they just sperged out at me. Why tie your identity to an OS? I won't defend wangblows for it's many flaws. and there are many. But if you call me retarded for it then of course I will get defensive...

>>643 >I can't stand the superiority complex that so many neckbeards seem to have about using Linux It's probably insecurity. They know linux has very few games and professional software written for it, but to them it doesn't matter. Because it's more important to be able to dismantle your entire OS like a clock radio than it is to do actual work, apparently... Quite a shame really, because their autism could come in very handy in familiarizing windows users with linux. It's not like linux distros are maintained by major companies with dedicated tech support to help end users use the OS. >foobar2000 My nigga. I tried a player called "DeaDBeeF" which is supposed to be the equivalent of foobar2000 on linux. It's equally customizable and it can read and write replaygain data, all is great. However when I tried writing replaygain data it completely corrupts the file. This may be a windows-only issue since I was using one of the "unofficial" windows builds, but I can't know for sure unless I try the linux version... Just leaving this here in case you wanna try it. >>644 >Where you have the "user" who is treated like an idiot and you can just use what's in your home directory, and that's separate from the 'root' user. Yes that is indeed a major hindrance. From my (rather limited) reading I found that this is because 'root' will absolutely let you brick the OS, while 'user' is locked-down to the point you can't even install some software. Again, no middle ground... I think you can just default to root all the time, but then you risk accidentally bricking the OS. >if it were up to me, every program should install into it's own separate folder in a Programs folder. no app data junk either. You should meet "portable apps", it's a website that repackages (free) programs in a way that they install completely into one directory only. No appdata, no registry, no start menu / desktop shortcuts, and of course no launch at startup. https://portableapps.com/apps The concept of a "portable app" in general is widespread within developers, and hackers, of windows software. You have devs making portable versions of their own software, or making it only portable. And you have hackers who crack paid software and tweak it to become portable, so you could have something like portable Photoshop! >Gobo Linux Looking into that now, and I think this might be exactly what we both want. There's a live image so I might download that later and give it a spin. >>645 >seems like a bit of a kludge in the end IMO. compared to just using it normally. I think it would just be easier to use a VM. I already have VirtualBox on windows, running an older windows, and it works well for older games and programs. I heard qemu is basically the same, but geared more towards advanced users who want to emulate specific hardware and/or do gpu passthrough. So probably more suited for modern software as well. >I never did like how Windows had "libraries" like My Documents and stuff like that. Just let me see the actual directories. Completely agree. And I like the directory system you proposed, it's basically like windows, but more organized and self-contained. And physical disks should absolutely be represented separately. >And honestly I would like to do away with the idea of "users" It's just a standard at this point, but I think it's a good standard. Even as the sole user of a PC, I sometimes make a guest account which has limited privileges, to test out if certain things will work as they do on admin accounts. >And he still tried to argue the command line is faster for these things That's absurd. Do linux autists just have a fetish for the command line? They even have freaking music/video players that run entirely in the command line, that's way too much. >when I told them that the computer they used to make their post was designed by an engineer using a CAD package on a Windows computer they just sperged out at me Hilarious. He should build his own PC parts, then assemble said parts into a computer, then install an OS of which he read every line of code. Now that's the true libre experience!

>>644 >If I ever need to reinstall something, I have all my installer files saved in that folder for me. and I can easily copy them over to a new computer and quickly install everything. I started doing the same thing not too long ago so that I don't need to go searching the Internet for every little program I want to install. >>645 >Another time I had some guys tell me that "real work" isn't done on Windows, when I told them that the computer they used to make their post was designed by an engineer using a CAD package on a Windows computer they just sperged out at me. That sounds like pure projection on their part. >Why tie your identity to an OS? I don't get it either. Computers are supposed to be tools and not an end in themselves. If someone is into computers for their own sake, then that's fine but they shouldn't lose sight of the fact that most people have a pragmatic interest in computers (if any). >>646 >It's probably insecurity. They know linux has very few games and professional software written for it, but to them it doesn't matter. Because it's more important to be able to dismantle your entire OS like a clock radio than it is to do actual work, apparently... Quite a shame really, because their autism could come in very handy in familiarizing windows users with linux. It's not like linux distros are maintained by major companies with dedicated tech support to help end users use the OS. Work and productivity are botnet. >My nigga. I tried a player called "DeaDBeeF" which is supposed to be the equivalent of foobar2000 on linux. It's equally customizable and it can read and write replaygain data, all is great. However when I tried writing replaygain data it completely corrupts the file. This may be a windows-only issue since I was using one of the "unofficial" windows builds, but I can't know for sure unless I try the linux version... Just leaving this here in case you wanna try it. I remember DeaDBeeF being one of the better ones I tried, but I remember still thinking it fell short for whatever reason. >That's absurd. Do linux autists just have a fetish for the command line? They even have freaking music/video players that run entirely in the command line, that's way too much. They seem to relish in intentionally making their computing experience painful.

>>637 I never noticed eye strain with my CRT TV.

>>646 >Quite a shame really, because their autism could come in very handy in familiarizing windows users with linux. this. and not because I want someone to spoonfeed me, but because more people using a "free" OS is a good thing. Microshart is a terrible company despite their successful products, especially now with their newest bullshit that you don't actually own. >From my (rather limited) reading I found that this is because 'root' will absolutely let you brick the OS, while 'user' is locked-down to the point you can't even install some software. pretty much. in theory it makes sense for security, I guess. >you should meet "portable apps" thanks for the link. some of the things I use are there like thunderbird, hexchat, rbtray, and a few more. >There's a live image so I might download that later and give it a spin. nice. I was messing with it and I liked what I saw but out of the box it's not quite "there". >I think it would just be easier to use a VM. I already have VirtualBox on windows yes IMO a VM is the best solution here compared to compatibility software like Wine, and also compared to dual booting. I also use VBox, and the main VMs I use are an XP one which has USB passthrough, and syncs to my Palm PDA. I also have installed the Guest Additions, so it works in "seamless mode" where the XP window displays as part of my normal desktop. I also have a Debian VM with seamless mode enabled. >It's just a standard at this point, but I think it's a good standard. Even as the sole user of a PC, I sometimes make a guest account which has limited privileges, to test out if certain things will work as they do on admin accounts that makes sense. But personally I don't like having the system be multiple-user focused to start with, I feel that a better solution would be to have the main user with full control (but perhaps with some sort of password authentication for security), and then if you decide you'd like to add accounts you can do so. As opposed to being boxed in as a lowly user to begin with. >That's absurd. Do linux autists just have a fetish for the command line? They even have freaking music/video players that run entirely in the command line, that's way too much. I think there's a bit of that. If you go to plebbit or other linux forums a lot of threads devolve into who's more cool which is just their form of autism, I guess. I mean, the command line is cool, and useful, and being able to use it is a good thing. But when you sperg out about it it's pretty lame. music players on the command line can be pretty neat but I guess that's up to the user. Maybe if you spend all day at the command line it makes sense.

This thread makes me feel good because I have been on GNU/Linux since XP EOL.

>>656 So since 2014-ish? Any pieces of advice you could give to users looking to switch from a pure Windows environment?

>>643 >You can't even just plug in a guitar and start playing either Seems to be a planned feature, but not yet implemented...

>>660 Good to know that the possibility of that feature being added is it at least on the table.

>>660 lmms is garbage, its an incomplete clone of FL circa 2004. Its only appeal is that its "good for beginners" because drag and drop sampling, step-sequencer and bundled plugins/samples. Step sequencers are trash to begin with but the one in lmms is simply broken and inferior to drum machines from the 80s. The mixing architecture is dogshit and still uses outdated ladspa plugins that someone wrote in 20 minutes 20 years ago. Editing on the timeline sucks ass, automation is trash. The only good thing is its piano roll and the plugins are somewhat decent and unified (still nothing better than LV2s). People just assume that if something is a clone of something commercially successful and has a pretty GUI its instantly the best choice, which is always false in the FOSS world. I'm sick of how over-hyped this garbage heap is, it make jokes about FOSS justified. I'd rather use cubase notator and a roland sound-canvas than LMMS. qtractor, ardour, or even sunvox are 1000 times better, you just have to find your own plugins / samples you like. I spent years figuring out the best way to produce music on linux but ended up just pirating ableton after using it on a friends computer because fuck it.

>>680 >its an incomplete clone of FL circa 2004 If it was even close to being as good as FL4 then I'd probably consider using it.

>>680 >lmms is garbage, its an incomplete clone of FL circa 2004. I don't know that I'd even call it a clone. I'd rather it went 100% knockoff than doing anything at all to differentiate it. >>681 It would definitely interest me if it stuck to the template of the older versions but continued to make improvements. I got so used to the way the pre-12 versions worked that I don't know that I can adapt.

>>682 >I got so used to the way the pre-12 versions worked that I don't know that I can adapt With a bit of repeated practice you'll get the hang of it, I cut my teeth during the FL4/5/6 days myself and it didn't take me too long to adjust to 12 and 20. I do miss TS404 though.

>>683 My workflow is completely shot due to the way the piano roll previews are so zoomed in. Is there any way to change that? The way the patterns work compared to the old ones also throw me off.

>>686 >My workflow is completely shot due to the way the piano roll previews are so zoomed in. Is there any way to change that? The piano roll previews on the step sequencer / channel rack? Yeah there's an option to restore the old behavior on the channel rack menu (top left arrow button), at the bottom you'll see "Show complete piano roll preview". >The way the patterns work compared to the old ones also throw me off. You can emulate the old pattern block behavior somewhat by right clicking on a playlist track header and selecting "Lock to content", there's a built-in template that has it all set up in advanced (File -> New from template -> Other -> Blocks).

>>687 >>686 I wanted to try making music in FL but I can never get into it. And I don't see the point in spending hours upon hours learning it because I don't want it that badly. I think if I had some actual hardware I'd be able to do it. I'd really like a drum machine, maybe even one of those new TR-808 replicas that Roland is making now, and a synth like a DX7. That would be a fun time. But when I look at FL my head spins.

>>689 >I don't see the point in spending hours upon hours learning it because I don't want it that badly If the drive isn't there then it isn't there I guess, no point trying to force it if it's not something you really want to do. >I think if I had some actual hardware I'd be able to do it Personally I find hardware to be far more tedious when it comes to actual music-making (as opposed to simply jamming for hours), but there are people out there who still swear by it. All I'll say is that there's a reason why most people moved away from hardware and towards working entirely in-the-box. >But when I look at FL my head spins There's been some serious feature creep in FL over the last decade, so it's admittedly a bit of a clusterfuck now. I think those of us who learned it in 2000s had a much easier time, because there were much less UI elements to get confused by, and there was only a handful of viable workflows rather than seemingly infinite possiblities. Back then FL was mostly compared to programs like Cubase, Reason, and ACID, and to most absolute beginners it was by far the most intuitive and easy to pick up of the bunch. >a synth like a DX7. That would be a fun time If you're new to synthesis, I think you'd be better off getting some kind of subtractive synth over an FM synth, especially when it comes to hardware. Programming an FM synth is hard enough on its own, but doing so with only a couple of menu navigation buttons and a tiny 2x16 character display is a real bitch.

>>694 >If the drive isn't there then it isn't there I guess, no point trying to force it if it's not something you really want to do. yeah it's not at the top of my list of things I'd like to get done. Right now I'm focusing on other things. >Personally I find hardware to be far more tedious when it comes to actual music-making Why's that? I can see how a computer program could be easier to edit music in, is it that? >All I'll say is that there's a reason why most people moved away from hardware and towards working entirely in-the-box. I would have guessed it's because hardware can be expensive and now everyone has a computer, so getting into it just requires you to run a program without even leaving your chair. >There's been some serious feature creep in FL... Yeah I suppose that happened with a lot of things in general. Are any of those others like Cubase much simpler or is there something really basic you'd recommend? >If you're new to synthesis, oh yeah I just think it's cool haha. I doubt I would be messing with programming the synth to begin with, I thought you had some presets though, built-in. I do have a Casio keyboard, not a synth by any means but the thing is all its presets are kind of lame sounding and it not being a synth means I have no chance of getting anything cooler. But, you can plug in a MIDI keyboard into a PC, right? Would you just need an adapter or something? If it were possible to change settings in your PC software to whatever instrument you wish, and press a key on the MIDI keyboard and have that produce the sound on your PC speakers that would be nice. Kind of like an emulated synth in software. Is that something you can do?

A little update to get some activity going... I started using linux and have been liking it so far, it's way better than Windows 10 for starters. Some things weren't as bad as I thought, others were as bad as I thought, but I've been working around them. The first distro I tried was Ubuntu, and it was absolutely terrible! Not only was it bloated and unstable as hell, it also failed at both being an average user distro and a power user distro. The "desktop" flavor of Ubuntu had a software center/store thing that wouldn't install any program, I would click on the install button and nothing happens, even after several minutes. Also it doesn't have Wine, so I had to install it from the terminal and found out it was one of the few lucky programs that still suffer from "dependency hell", so the installation procedure took hours of fiddling around just to start. I also tried the "server" flavor to get a more advanced installation of Ubuntu without most of the bloat, but it kept throwing errors during setup. After 4-5 times I just gave up. Afterwards there were several distros I tried, the two that stuck with me were Solus and Void. The former excels at being user-friendly and has a functioning software store with Wine, thank god, but doesn't really have many advanced options for tinkerers. The latter is more "hands-on" so not as friendly, but has plenty of advanced options and tools. It even allows you to make a custom ISO from scratch in a very intuitive way. So here are some general notes I gathered about linux, coming from a Windows user. 1. Installing software isn't a pain normally. You either install through the graphical software center or by pasting one command in the terminal, in both cases it's a "click & go" kinda procedure. A lot of software doesn't even need installation and is distributed as "AppImage" files, basically one file you download, you set it as "executable", and you run it. That's the whole program in one self-contained file, and it works across distros! 2. You can install any desktop environment basically the graphical "theme" with a dock/taskbar, window borders, some programs to manage settings and so on on any distro, and you can tweak it exactly to your liking when it comes to both behavior and look. The best DE I've seen is KDE Plasma, it's light and looks gorgeous. There's also XFCE which is not quite as gorgeous but equally light. 3. The directory structure of linux is a mess, there are videos that explain it quite well but there's still a steep learning curve, and some programs throw their files all over the place. The Windows structure is much more intuitive, but at least now I understand mount points and how different drives and partitions are represented on linux.

>>729 I'm glad you're finding it workable man! Unfortunately for me I do a lot of things that only run on Windows, so I'm sticking with 7 for now. I remember 'distro hopping' quite a bit myself and I've pretty much just settled on Debian. at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter terribly much anyway, they're all pretty similar anyway from what I have experienced. I use Debian mainly inside a virtual machine at the moment, and I use XFCE. I have it set up to look like Win95/98, not exactly, but close enough for me to be comfortable with it. Coming from Windows I definitely like the customizability and stuff like that, although sometimes it doesn't work all that well, it seems like generally you can do almost anything you want but it might take a lot of work and fiddling to do. For example in XFCE I want to use the super key + D to show the desktop, and also use the super key by itself to open the start menu, but for some reason I can only do one or the other and I might have to keep looking to figure this one out. I agree with you on the directories, I don't know if I'll ever like how it's set up, or get used to it. But it is what it is, and it's a lot better than windows 10, which makes me want to kill myself whenever I use it.

>>687 Okay. thanks. I just tried out the piano roll preview thing, and that should help out a lot when I'm ready to switch over. I thought it would be an oversight in there wasn't an option for that. >>689 Making FM sounds on hardware without an external editor is a huge hassle. I own a TX802 and only ever end up using them when it's time for recording (since I'm an autist over "authenticity"). I'd recommend downloading Dexed and putting in some time with it when you want to learn how to make DX7 sounds. It takes some time to learn, but it can be pretty satisfying to make sounds on. At this point I've realized that I prefer the grittier four-operator FM synths to the sleeker six-operator ones like the DX7. The icier DX7 sound is nice for contrasting with typical subtractive tones or for when you'd like a more professional, studio-quality '80s FM style. I'd probably sell my rack version if Dexed is ever able to stand toe-to-toe with the real thing (maybe it is now, I don't know) and if I could find a buyer. My four-operator synth I only paid $60 for and has that DOS game sound straight out of the box, which is what I was looking for in the first place. As far as FL Studio goes, I first learned the basics by playing with the step sequencer, then inputting simple lines in piano roll, then learning what chords are going to look like and how to use the mixer to add effects. It does take some time to learn, but it can be done.

>>745 Better Windows 7 than 10, that shit gives a whole new meaning to the word "unusable". >they're all pretty similar anyway from what I have experienced Pretty much. Programs/DEs run everywhere and drivers are embedded in the kernel which can be changed any time... The only real differences from what I've seen anyway are the stability of the base system, the packaging format, the completeness and update frequency of repos, and of course community support. The last one is probably the most important because every distro has its "quirks", and if no one is keeping tabs on them troubleshooting becomes a pain. >I have it set up to look like Win95/98, not exactly, but close enough for me to be comfortable with it That's cool. Did you do any tweaks aside from basic theming and such? Somewhat related; there's an ancient window manager called Qvwm that looks almost exactly like the Win95 shell. Pic related. Sadly nowhere to be found in the repos, so I'll have to compile that one myself to test it. >Coming from Windows I definitely like the customizability and stuff like that [...] but it might take a lot of work and fiddling to do I strongly agree here. When you install a DE it takes care of most of the functionality for you, but more intricate tweaks are difficult if not impossible. On the other hand, when you use only a window manager you get to tweak almost everything, but you have to implement some of the functionality yourself... Personally I'm all about customization so I'm leaning more towards a window manager, as I become more used to linux it should be easier to configure settings by hand (at least initially) and learn some things along the way.

>>762 >whole new meaning to the word "unusable". It makes me want to tear my hair out. I've installed it in a VM so I can mess around with it and see if I can change it enough to a point where I'm OK using it, but I haven't gotten there at all. >The only real differences from what I've seen anyway are the stability of the base system, the packaging format, the completeness and update frequency of repos, and of course community support. Seems like it. One thing that irked me with a standard Debian install was that "users are not in the sudoers file" crap, when every guide online tells you to sudo this and that. When the most basic thing doesn't work and you have to go start editing obscure files on the system as a new user it's frustrating. If I installed Debian again, I would have to go through the same process because I forgot how I did it to begin with. And I guess Ubuntu doesn't do it that way. Minor stuff like that. >Did you do any tweaks aside from basic theming and such? No, not really. I just installed the Chicago95 theme by hand, unzipping things where they need to go and stuff like that. Pretty basic stuff. There are some more advanced things I want to do but it's not my main system and it works fine so far, so I haven't. The reason I'm using XFCE instead of something more obscure like maybe FVWM95 is because if I use something that isn't mainstream supported I'll run into some issue and never be able to fix it. So for now, I'm sticking to more or less simple stuff. >Qvwm I will check this out, though. I have compiled stuff before so I should be able to do it.

>>763 >One thing that irked me with a standard Debian install was that "users are not in the sudoers file" crap Strange, because Ubuntu by default adds users to the sudo group, or at least the first user created which is a no brainer. Did you not get asked during setup which groups you want your user to belong to? Anyway, I did a quick search and found that you don't need to edit files manually to change groups, all you need are a few commands (on Ubuntu which should also be true for Debian also)... To view all groups on the system >getent group To view the groups you are in >groups To add yourself to a group >usermod -a -G groupname username If the last command doesn't work replace the -a -G with -g

>>694 I actually bought myself a whole collection of grooveboxes this year (MP7, MC505, MC307, MPC500, DR202, KO1, EM1, SP606, SP808, RM1X, SB246, QY100), and it's really taught me how expensive and how much of a hassle hardware really is in comparison to DAWs and trackers. And to add, I've since started using FLStudio 3.55 which has re-shifted my opinion on software trackers as it's a much more user friendly and intuitive software to use and to learn as a beginner in comparison to the more modern versions. The thing i got out of hardware; I learned a lot about how computers work and got introduced to a lot of older tech like SCSI, RS232, Zip Drives, Midi, MO Disks etc. Also became a lot more partial to retro computers and messing around with programming in general than i would've been before i started playing with electronic music gear. You need to learn about maintaining the gear and replace/fix parts when buttons stick or encoders jump. You also learn a whole lot about the cultural context behind popular movements, take the 808, 303, 909, Juno, 101, JP8000, MPC, EMU and so on.. these instruments were partially the reason as to why certain movements and genres came to be and it's a very odd feeling to know that specific approaches and techniques applied to these instruments created entire genres and movements and social phenomenons that carry on to this day. In retrospect, being the victim of gas and gearlust, i feel like the tendancy to fetishize tone and character will only grow stronger moving forwards amongst the audio community, especially as it kind of becomes more mainstream and accessible to the public. I see more serious and dedicated musicians and pros begin buying cheap gear to post photos of them playing it on instagram, as everybody likes looking at racks and desks of gear.

>>801 >The thing i got out of hardware; I learned a lot about how computers work and got introduced to a lot of older tech like SCSI, RS232, Zip Drives, Midi, MO Disks etc. Also became a lot more partial to retro computers and messing around with programming in general than i would've been before i started playing with electronic music gear. You need to learn about maintaining the gear and replace/fix parts when buttons stick or encoders jump. I actually ended up buying an old sampler that had the floppy drive replaced with an SD card reader. It might not be much of a learning experience, but I'm just glad I haven't needed to mess around with floppy disks. Having to convert sound files over to the right format is still enough of a hassle that I'm considering selling it and using a Microgranny though. Those old samplers sound great, but they're a pain to use (mine also has complex envelopes instead of simple ADSR ones that makes it a time-consuming task to get sounds out of it quickly unless you want invest some time into learning the interface). I wish someone would make a modern, user-friendly piece of hardware with the sound of the '80s samplers. As far as maintenance goes, that's one of the things I hate about hardware. I bought a Matrix-1000, and it seems to have gone out of tune on me. I assumed it would be pretty reliable given the DCOs, but apparently that's not the case. I'm considering just buying a Prophet Rev2 and seeing if I can get old-school sounds out of it with Voice Component Modeling, but that's not really my ideal synth. >In retrospect, being the victim of gas and gearlust, i feel like the tendancy to fetishize tone and character will only grow stronger moving forwards amongst the audio community, especially as it kind of becomes more mainstream and accessible to the public. I see more serious and dedicated musicians and pros begin buying cheap gear to post photos of them playing it on instagram, as everybody likes looking at racks and desks of gear. Yeah, especially seeing as how Behringer has been remaking older synths and releasing them at such affordable prices. I'm glad to see the barrier to owning vintage-sounding synthesizers being lowered, gear snobs be damned. Overall, it's been the cheapest synthesizers I've bought that I've been the most happy with.

>>729 Another belated update. I settled on Void as my daily distro with XFCE as the desktop environment, and haven't booted into W10 in months... I understand the system directory structure a lot better now (but not perfectly) and realize that it makes sense from a developmental perspective. What doesn't make sense is how almost every character in existence is allowed in file names, yet a lot of programs can't handle mere spaces or commas, thanks curl without fiddling. If there's one thing Windows did right it's adding spaces in all system folders by default (e.g. "Documents and Settings", "Program Files") so that developers are forced to handle them. Wine's installation was painless unlike what I experienced in Ubuntu, however it's not as great as journos and jewtubers want you to believe. A lot of (older) games will work out of the box, sure, but try installing DirectX or its alternative DXVK and you get all kinds of surprises. DX9 and sometimes DX10 games are the least problematic however DX11 and beyond will simply not run, at least in my own personal experience... This is not a problem for me because I mostly play retro shit anyway but I wouldn't seriously recommend Wine to anyone. Lutris was completely useless by the way it even rhymes! Since my distro's repositories don't have everything, I naturally had to compile several programs myself. This was a learning experience as I got to know the different "build systems" and how to use them even when no compilation instructions are provided. I also got to see what a well maintained project looks like, and what a half-assed project looks like. From my observations C code was the least problematic to compile, while C++ code almost always needs tinkering in order to compile. For example I tried compiling a C program from 1994 and it compiled flawlessly, not a single error, while a C++ program from 1998 (last updated in 2014) absolutely refused to compile, even despite my efforts to debug it. However it's worth noting that if you reach out to the developer, in most cases he will reply and fix any bugs in his code so you can compile it.

>>938 I used Void a while ago, and it's pretty ok if it suits your purpose, but there are some instances where it really sucks: 1. If your boot partition is "too small", your machine will not boot anymore after a while. This is because when you update your kernel, the old kernel does not get removed, so if you're low on space, the update procedure may fail, and it does not handle write errors properly, so you end up with a kernel image that's only partially written to the hard drive. This can be fixed by manually booting one of the older kernels, then removing the unneeded kernels, but it's just a hassle that shouldn't exist, and it makes Void Linux something I'd never recommend for a person who's not already good with debugging computer problems. 2. If you do cross-compiling with GCC, your compiler may stop working when GCC is updated, because Void Linux often updates the regular GCC without updating the cross-compiler packages at the same time. This is a problem because both versions seem to share some files together, but the files don't seem to be compatible across versions. The worst part is that it sometimes takes months for the cross-compile packages to be updated. The issue number two is a good example why I would regard Linux as a software-as-a-service model, as it is heavily dependent on the package maintainers. Windows has always been much better at backwards-compatibility and installing different versions of programs.

>>939 Didn't know any of that, thanks for the info. Personally I never ran into problem #1 because I mostly run the OS live, so whenever I need to update the system -which is rarely- I just generate a new disk image and flash it. But that's not a solution of course... Did you communicate these issues with the devs on the IRC? It should be trivial to implement an auto-remover for old kernels and more organized compiler updates. >as it is heavily dependent on the package maintainers True. Thankfully that dependence is slowly going away thanks to new "portable app" technologies like AppImages, Flatpaks and, sigh, Snaps. I've personally benefited greatly from the first, since nowadays a fair number of package devs just offer them on their website as standalone files next to EXEs and DMGs. Who would have thought that day would come? Granted I haven't heard of a compiler in AppImage form, but I reckon it's possible. You can always compile your own programs, which will make way for eventually contributing those missing packages yourself and/or creating a plethora of AppImage versions. >Windows has always been much better at backwards-compatibility Yes, one of the main reasons why I still like Windows, but now that I have the Linux autist's perspective I can clearly see it as a liability. Ancient code is never cleaned nor refactored, only built upon with hacky workarounds, which culminated over the years into an OS that is not only bloated but also very dysfunctional. Case in point being W10 which made me move to Linux in the first place... I don't believe you can have true backwards compatibility while retaining the freedom to improve your code, unless you go the portable app route. By the way what distro(s) do you use and would recommend? inb4 using arch btw

>>940 >Did you communicate these issues with the devs on the IRC? It's been a while so I don't remember for certain, but I think the compiler issue is quite well known. I wouldn't mind reporting bugs to open source projects, but I prefer to use tor and avoid javascript. Open source projects, on the other hand, tend to use freenode, which has banned tor, and github, which requires javascript. >Ancient code is never cleaned nor refactored, only built upon with hacky workarounds, which culminated over the years into an OS that is not only bloated but also very dysfunctional. If you take a look at the leaked source code of DirectX, I'd say that code base looks pretty decent to me. It actually has comments, unlike most FOSS projects. FOSS advocates like to talk about the benefits of open source, but that's just marketing speech. What really matters is the quality of the code. >Case in point being W10 which made me move to Linux in the first place Windows 10 is a clusterfuck I'd never want to touch. It's really a shame because Windows used to be quite comfy in the past. My father still uses Windows XP on his old computer, and it always amazes me just how good and snappy it feels. And XP was already a small downgrade UI-wise from previous versions. >I don't believe you can have true backwards compatibility while retaining the freedom to improve your code I don't understand what you're trying to say. If you mean that a software update will necessarily break backwards compatibility, then that's just a case of a poorly designed software interface. >By the way what distro(s) do you use and would recommend? I used Arch a long time ago, but I got tired of it breaking too easily. More recently, I've tried Void, Devuan, and MX Linux, but all of them have their issues. MX Linux and Devuan are Debian-based, so they have old packages. It's really annoying because I just end up compiling a lot of software from source as a result. I'm considering giving Alpine Linux a shot. Some people such as Luke Smith seem to like Artix Linux, but since it's based on Arch Linux, I'm a bit wary of going down that path again.

>>948 >but I prefer to use tor and avoid javascript Okay. I asked about your 2 issues on IRC and was told that the compiler issue is not true, however the kernel one is. New kernels can potentially break something so they keep the old ones as backup... I did suggest they automatically remove the really old ones though, so we'll see if they'll do anything about it. I do recall using GitHub once not too long ago without JS and it worked fine, although I couldn't properly browse the code tree. If you're just reporting an issue then you should have no problems using GH with JS disabled. >What really matters is the quality of the code. Agreed. >I don't understand what you're trying to say. Let's say you found a vulnerability in the kernel, and fixing it will break some programs, or at least require that they be recompiled... Would you fix the vulnerability? Or would you "work around it" adding unnecessary bloat and potentially many other vulnerabilities, so the programs keep running? Linux did the former, while Windows did the latter. The point is, you can either choose to improve code and remove bad parts of it, or choose backwards compatibility and forever keep said bad parts, seldom both. >Alpine Linux It's near useless as a desktop OS, see https://archive.today/mlMmK So you're currently using Devuan/MX? I tried Devuan once and it was pretty good, but I was already on Void by that time so I just didn't bother giving it a proper trial. >I just end up compiling a lot of software from source as a result I think it's practically impossible to use any Linux distro without having to compile something at some point, unless you have an AUR-like repo but we all know how that's gonna end up. Just embrace compiling from source and use it as a learning experience. >Luke Smith No.

>>949 >I asked about your 2 issues on IRC and was told that the compiler issue is not true I did some searching and I think this was the issue: https://old.reddit.com/r/voidlinux/comments/awltx2/gcc_cannot_compile_32bit_after_update/ If you search in that subreddit, you will find other threads pointing out similar problems. The solution to that problem is simple: the maintainers should always update gcc-multilib at the same time, as other packages are updated. If they have started doing that, then that's great. >Let's say you found a vulnerability in the kernel, and fixing it will break some programs I would imagine that most vulnerabilities are simple buffer overflows and such things, so fixing them shouldn't require interface changes. If interface-changing fixes need to be made in the OS, then breaking compatibility is fine, but there should be an option to enable a compatibility setting manually for certain programs. I suppose it's possible that sometimes even that cannot be done, but I'd imagine such cases to be rare. >So you're currently using Devuan/MX? I just realized I'm actually using MX 18 instead of the newer MX 19. Apparently MX Linux does not support upgrading the distribution to a newer version when its underlying debian base gets upgraded. As a result, I'm thinking of going back to Devuan some time in the future. This is also why I mentioned in my previous post about having to compile a lot of software. I'm still running the oldstable debian, so the packages in the package manager are really old.

What do you guys think about fax machines? I still own one, the thing is useful to this day and very resident

>>958 Do people still use them much outside of Japan?

>>959 What's with Japanese people and /retro/ tech? I remember hearing about "dumb"/flip phones being still relatively popular there.

>>960 Three factors 1) One of the largest elderly population on the planet, meaning you get futuristic bullet trains operated by people who still use fax machines for office work 2) A traditionalist mentality, in Japan you want to avoid radical change as much as possible and generally speaking the average Japanese reactionary is more conservative than the average Western right winger, they take great pride in what they've created so far since most of the retro tech stuff came from there anyhow 3) Conveniency, flip phones are still popular because they had really good plans and coverage, while we have a measly 26 alphabet letters they have a buttload, you don't need to suck on China and North Korea's titties to get the items necessary to build a flip phone compared to a smartphone and they're also sturdier and cheaper than a smartphone.

>>961 Makes sense... Thanks anon.

>>961 >2) A traditionalist mentality, in Japan you want to avoid radical change as much as possible That's what I thought.

>>958 I'll probably get one when I move out and into my own place and use it whenever it's convenient.