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Philosophers interested in building an AGI? pygmalion 06/26/2021 (Sat) 00:53:09 No.11102
Why is it that no philosophers are interested in building an AGI? we need to change this, or at least collect relevant philosophers. discussion about philosophy of making AGI (includes metaphysics, transcendental psychology, general philosophy of mind topics, etc!) also highly encouraged! Ill start ^^! so the philosophers i know that take this stuff seriously: Peter Wolfendale - the first Neo-Rationalist on the list. his main contribution here is computational Kantianism. just by the name you can tell that he believes Kant's transcendental psychology has some important applications to designing an artificial mind. an interesting view regarding this is that he thinks Kant actually employed a logic that was far ahead of his time (and you basically need a sophisticated type theory with sheaves to properly formalize). Other than that he also thinks Kant has interesting solutions to the frame problem, origin of concepts, and personhood. CONTACTS: He has a blog at https://deontologistics.co/, and also has posted some lectures on youtube like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWDZyOWN4VA&ab_channel=deontologistics Reza Negarestani - this is another Neo-Rationalist. he has written a huge work (which I haven't read yet ;_;) called "Intelligence and Spirit". It's massive and talks about various grades of general intelligence. this includes sentient agents, sapient agents, and Geist. this guy draws from Kant as well, but he also builds on Hegel's ideas too. his central thesis is that Hegel's Geist is basically a distributed intelligence. he also has an interesting metaphilosophy where he claims that the goal of philosophy is the construct an AGI. like other Neo-Rationalists, he heavily relies on the works of Sellars and Robert Brandom Recc: Ray Brassier (recent focuses) - I dont think he is working on artificial general intelligence, but his work on Sellars, and in particular rule following is very insightful! Hubert Dreyfus - Doesn't quite count, but he did try to bring Heidegger to AGI. He highlighted the importance of embodiment to the frame problem and common sense knowledge. I personally think Bergson might have explicated what he wanted to achieve but better, though that guy is like way before AI was even a serious topic, lol. Murray Shanahan - This guy has done some extra work on the frame problem following Dreyfus. His solution is to use global workspace theory and parralel processing of different modules. Interesting stuff! Barry Smith - Probably the most critical philosopher on this list. He talks about the requisite system dynamics for try strong AI, and concludes that our current methods simply don't cut it. One of the key stressing points he points out here with a colleague is that our current AI is Markovian when fleshed out chat dialogue would be a non-Markovian task (you can find the arxiv link of his criticism here: https://arxiv.org/abs/1906.05833). He also has knowledge on analytic ontology (and amongst other thing has some lectures about emotion ontology). I think his main genius however is in coming up with a definition of intelligence that puts a lot of the problems with our current approaches into context (which can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0giPMMoKR9s&ab_channel=BarrySmith) CONTACTS: He has a yt channel here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0giPMMoKR9s&ab_channel=BarrySmith Uhh, that's the introduction of pretty much every philosopher I know who works on this stuff. I made a thread on /lit/ and got no responses :( (which isn't surprising since I am the only person I know who is really into this stuff)
>>40929 Lol. I'm not a PhD! (Yet. :D My own philosophy around the idea is that you're explicitly devising mechanisms that allow heat (or, more-technically, energy) to do work, and that uses up some of the available entropy. This waste entropy is never recoverable by humans, and thus it is "burned" -- just like a fuel in a motor. And these machines never happen by accident, and are always the artifacts of intelligence. Non-intentional effects (ie, physics) don't do much to move things from low-information states to high-information states (and even in the corner cases where it happens it immediately flows back to low-information). But burning entropy inside intentionally-crafted mechanisms can readily increase the information within a system. Biomolecules (nanomachines, specifically) have been designed by God explicitly to do just that. So-called """synthetic""" chemistry (a non-existent entity) never did, never could, and never will. Human beings can clearly also devise mechanisms that burn entropy to increase information. You're using one right now. --- Please instruct us how your extinguishers (lolwut, I don't even) function?
Edited last time by Chobitsu on 09/01/2025 (Mon) 10:25:24.
>>40932 >>40933 >>40934 That's cool and all, but AFAICT the (one and only) Genetic Code is still very-much in effect in Mitochondria, Ribose. None of these systems would exist without it.
>>40936 There are in fact spiritual beings operating on the planet Earth beside simply homo sapiens sapiens (the only natural creature with spirit). God, heavenly angels, fallen demonic angels all play their parts in influencing human activities. >>40939 >In God's thumb prints there are mysteries. Naicu. Dr. Hugh Ross' first book The Fingerprint of God has been influential on many intellectuals. I highly recommend it to you, Anon. Cheers. :^)
>>40951 uh, extinguishing-pressure is how biotic cellulrons go from low frequency chi to high frequency auraus using hard-distance and chiral-buoyancy vibrational energy manifestation, duh! thats how distance gets hardened over time what you said is literally no different from farting in a room, do you even know what fking entropy is
>>40957 >do you even know what fking entropy is I'd ask you just the same. I consider this a really good primer on the topic. Educate yourself, friend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxL2HoqLbyA
>>40958 i already said bouncing balls and farting in a room, did you even go to school or do you seriously thinking throwing out measurement words like 'entropy' 'temperature' 'pressure' will make your bullshit more scientificabably-correct
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>>40957 >what you said is literally no different from farting in a room, do you even know what fking entropy is
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>>40960 go to school idiot
>>40959 >>40962 If you think I'm talking about the mindless, undirected dissipation of energy out into the void, then you're probably missing the basic point that I tried to make rather apparent. When I say "burning" entropy, I'm speaking of the purposeful, directed use of the entropic effect -- metaphorically much like burning fuel in a motor -- intended to drive information (or complexity, if you will) state from low to high. ATP Synthase is literally the 'poster child' of this magnificent phenomenon, devised by God himself. My apologies if my terms are confusing. >>40960 Lel'd. :D
>>40963 >still going just use more gobbledygook and throw more !Science! terms around like a fucking enzyme to hide the fact you have no fucking clue what the fuck youre even saying yeah enzymes totally """""burn"""" entropy just like cars """"combust""""" velocity and cells """""metabolize"""" temperature and lungs """"extinguish"""" pressure, you have no fucking clue this is absolutely embarrassing and beyond idiotic, not even a retard can spout this level of trash
I learned that the entropy fairies fear ice fairies because of the third law of thermodynamics. Ice fairies can cause a crystal at absolute zero making a zero entropy system. The ultimate lack of chaos. Boring frozen order for eternity.
>>40952 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Mitochondrial-codon-assignments-that-differ-from-those-in-the-standard-code-UAA-UAG-UGA_tbl1_8037045 >Mitochondria often use genetic codes different from the standard genetic code. Now that many mitochondrial genomes have been sequenced, these variant codes provide the first opportunity to examine empirically the processes that produce new genetic codes. The key question is: Are codon reassignments the sole result of mutation and genetic drift?
>>40964 Lol. In fact the specifically-directed gatekeeping of protons flowing across their cell wall gradients (provided in the first place thanks to the cell's """respiratory""" motors [themselves also great examples of burning entropy!] :D ; with the explicit, intentional goal of folding high-chemical-energy ATP (and recharging the 'dead' ADP molecules) is very clearly an example of my intended meaning, I think. [1, 2] :^) >>40966 My point being that without the one-and-only Genetic Code's existence, these things couldn't even exist in the first place. No cells, no mitochondria. If you can convince me that they could exist standalone in the prebiotic Earth then I'll concede your position, Ribose. Till then I'll abstain. But yeah, I think its fascinating stuff you're bringing! Cheers. :^) --- 1. https://www.discovery.org/v/energy-harnessing/ 2. In fact, an exquisitely-better example of it than of all those research scientists burning all that entropy inside their labs to even discover all this amazing stuff! :D
Edited last time by Chobitsu on 09/01/2025 (Mon) 21:59:41.
>>40968 I believe the standaed genetic code exists to share information among other lifeforms and to cut oneself off from this system (God's love) is to spell death.
>>40968 you cannot burn entropy you fucking retard just like you cant burn temperature or any other measurement derived from the state of a system, you are fucking braindead dumping an explanation of cellular respiration doesnt prove a single stupid assertion you make or youre save your incompetence, this isnt even correct, respiration is just a redox reaction, a fucking rusting piece of metal is too this is so common and basic bitch you have to have never studied chemistry to think this is special occurrence and can only be designed this way instead of being an evolutionary adaptation, idiot
>>40972 Entropy is the number of microstates in a system. If you could reduce the number of microstatea you could reduce entropy. This takes energy from an outside source, but it is exactly what life does. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(statistical_thermodynamics)
>>40974 says who, when and in what, animals or plants, how many microstates does a single cell have, how many fewer does it have when dehydrated, how many more when hydrated, its completely arbitrary and meaningless in biology
>>40975 >its completely arbitrary and meaningless in biology Bullshit. Natural selection is not random selection.
>>40976 as a measurement, its like saying life is 1m/s^2, what are you even measuring and when, its arbitrary
>>40977 Entropy in vs Entropy out. Microstates before v microstates after.
>>40978 of the atoms in what, a cell, a cat, a tree, the world? a cat drinking water and hydrating its cells increases entropy in the system:cat a cat breathing and dissolving o2 in its blood decrease entropy in the system:world this is arbitrary and pointless
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>>40979 Disordered unorganized molecules and energy come in. Ordered molecules and waste come out.
>>40980 i dont understand, so the disorder is reversed and it comes out in the original way and order?
>>40981 No. Low order + energy = higher order (in the biological system) + waste. Disorder is a net negative but this relies on energy from an outside source.
>>40963 I think I'm starting to fully understand. Take the fart example, a disordered fart is made by digesting an ordered bean, in order to fuel me.
>>40969 >>40970 >>40971 Intredasting, thanks. >>40972 As with biologists decision to call them the cell's "respiration" complexes (proton pumps, actually), I also disagree with materialist physicists definitions surrounding the entropic effect. Entropy is an amazing engine within the universe (and one only available during a limited timeframe as well, all else being equal). My philosophical choice to refer to the cell's intentional, designed use of the dispersion of energy across gradients as "burning" entropy is just as valid as you saying you """reduce""" the fuel in your truck engine when you intentionally drive around on that process. --- But unlike some mere "potatoe" "potatoe" debate, my choice is an intentional rebellion against the materialist's, Filthy Commie, Nihilist, drive towards death & destruction (HEAT DEATH OF THE UNIVERSE BRO!111). Instead, our intentionally capitalizing on the amazing & elegant systems provided to us by God as gifts -- including the entropic effect -- is a pathway towards life & light above. Simple as. :^)
>>40987 Yes. And the fart isn't the main point here. The incredible, astounding, magnificent orchestration of mammalian digestion is. Without the 4 fundamental laws of the universe, without the astounding variety of atomic/molecular bonding provided by the laws of chemistry, without quantum mechanics and the entropic effect -- it simply wouldn't be possible at the physics & chemistry levels. --- Now add in the unimaginable complexity of the molecular biology involved (nanomachines ad infinitum, seemingly); astounding software systems (plural) of the DNA molecule; the superior elegance of the one-and-only Genetic Code underlying it all; and its really beyond human fathoming or description! :^) And alway rember... always keep in mind: This has all been intentionally designed just-so by our Creator. * >tl;dr >"If you want to make an apple pie [or eat it!], you must first invent the universe." >-t. Carl Sagan --- * Just so some'non or friend doesn't feel free to accuse me of Deism (super-powered, science'y Ayylmaos on steriods): here I specifically refer to the triune Godhead (Father, Son, Holy Spirit); manifested bodily by/within this universe (before, during, and after it's creation) by the Lord Jesus Christ himself! :^)
Edited last time by Chobitsu on 09/02/2025 (Tue) 15:06:27.
>>40988 The problem with heat death is that it assumes that the universe is a closed system and that is one hell of an assumption to make. God is the only one who can make something from nothing, and he is part of this universe and outside the laws of physics.
>>40991 Absolutely this. The Transcendence of God is a basic, all-pervading Christian doctrine. Gödel's incompleteness theorems demonstrate that God could not be constrained solely within this universe (which, as I understand things, other religions assert. either directly or indirectly.) We know from the ΛCDM model of the universe's origin (aka The Big """Bang"""), that all the time, all the space, all the matter, all the energy of this universe came into being at the same singularity point. By definition this means the Originator is external to it.
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>>40988 fuel is a physical object dumbass unlike combustion which is a reaction unlike entropy which isnt an object or a process but a fking measurement a number a quantity, how can someone be this stupid and uneducated pure gibberish
>>40993 I hope you pursue a PhD in theology
>>40994 That's simply b/c you haven't expanded your level IMO. Begin to think holistically, and you'll see that 'entropy' isn't some materialist's empty words, but rather a very real, very-fundamental aspect -- indeed a medium -- of the universe's nature, just like time & space. >tl;dr Ever "waste" time before, friend? >>40995 Thanks, fren Ribose! I'm truly excited every.single.day. by all this stuff!
>>40994 Fuel my be a physical object, but the potential energy in the bonds that are broken are energy which is converted to entropy to reduce energy in a biology system.
>>40997 does a plane convert kerosene into flying and speed, no one speaks like this
>>40999 I mean it kind of does. Also exhaust. Life converts chemicals and energy into work and waste to overcome entropy. How else would you put it?
>>41002 overcome entropy? do warm blooded animals overcome temperature as well or is this just a stupid property that is regulated like a car 'overcoming' speed=0 by 'converting' fuel into speed this is gibberish
>>41003 Hardly. Without consuming energy the organism would decay. And yes they do.
>>41004 and what does consuming energy have to do with entropy are you confused with enthalpy
>>41003 Disordered molecules are entering the system as is heat energy. >>40958
>>41006 so water is disordered? and what system
>>41008 Yes it is. Ice is less disordered. Third law And the ecosystem
>>41009 and is the body not majority made of water if its an ecosystem then anything in the sun like rain, volcanos, rivers, are alive
>>41010 In a way yes. A shinto would agree with that 100%
The process for making a homunculus, as described in historical alchemical texts, is more of a symbolic and ritualistic procedure than a literal scientific one. The most famous "recipe" comes from the 16th-century alchemist and physician Paracelsus in his work De Natura Rerum. It is important to understand that many scholars believe these instructions were intended to be an allegory for a spiritual process of self-creation and inner transformation, not a physical experiment. However, when read literally, the recipe is as follows: The Paracelsus Recipe 1. The Vessel and Ingredients: Take human semen and place it in a glass vessel known as a cucurbit (a type of retort used in distillation). The vessel must be hermetically sealed, meaning it is completely airtight. 2. Incubation: The sealed vessel is then to be buried in a pile of fermenting horse manure (venter equinus in Latin) for a period of 40 days. The manure provides a consistent, gentle warmth that simulates the temperature of the human body. 3. Animation: After 40 days, Paracelsus claims that the contents of the vessel will begin to show signs of life, moving and stirring. At this point, it will appear as a transparent, miniature human form. 4. Nourishment: For the next 40 weeks (the length of a human gestation period), the alchemist must carefully nourish the homunculus. This is done by feeding it with the "arcanum of human blood," which is a highly debated phrase. It is thought to refer to a specially prepared blood essence or a concentrated form of spiritual energy. 5. Growth: Throughout this period, the vessel must be kept at a constant temperature. If all the steps are followed correctly, the transparent form will grow into a "true and living infant," with all the members of a human child, though it will be much smaller. The Symbolic Meaning While the literal instructions are strange and unscientific, scholars have interpreted them as a series of symbolic steps for the spiritual transformation of the alchemist: Semen: Represents the fundamental creative force and the alchemist's own will or essence. Sealed Vessel: Represents the purified and protected mind of the alchemist. Horse Manure (Venter Equinus): Symbolizes a process of putrefaction and decay. In alchemy, this is a necessary step for spiritual death and rebirth. It is the "dark night of the soul" that must be endured before new, pure life can emerge. 40 Days/Weeks: These numbers are significant in many religions, representing periods of trial, purification, and transformation (e.g., Jesus's 40 days in the desert, the 40 years the Israelites wandered). * "Arcanum of Human Blood": This is often interpreted as the alchemist's own spiritual essence or life force, indicating that the Great Work is an internal process that requires personal sacrifice. In essence, making a homunculus was likely an allegorical description of the process of an alchemist achieving a higher state of consciousness, transforming their own base nature into something pure and perfected—a process similar to the turning of lead into gold.
Remarkable distinctions between humans vs. apes or hominins; for communications with their infants. This has deep implications on understanding the nature of the human soul vs. animals' much-more primitive ones. From the Christian perspective. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orhg1uBhgOY&
Edited last time by Chobitsu on 10/01/2025 (Wed) 16:04:28.
>>41972 Look into corvids. They are also remarkably similar to humans and chimps.
>>41973 Yeah, they're amazing. I love Raveys...they're the best!! :D https://trashchan.xyz/robowaifu/manage/thread/26.html#1305
>>12828 Since this material may be yoink'd on us all b/c (((reasons))), seems safest to keep our own copy handy. https://annas-archive.org/md5/399ded657ea0a21fe9c50ea2c950b208
Edited last time by Chobitsu on 10/06/2025 (Mon) 05:57:09.

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