/robowaifu/ - DIY Robot Wives

Advancing robotics to a point where anime catgrill meidos in tiny miniskirts are a reality.

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Actuators For Waifu Movement Part 2 Waifu Boogaloo Kiwi 09/02/2021 (Thu) 05:30:48 No.12810
(Original thread >>406) Kiwi back from the dead with a thread for the discussion of actuators that move your waifu! Part Two! Let's start with a quick refresher! 1. DC motors, these use a rotating magnetic field created through commutation to rotate a rotor! They're one of the cheapest options and are 30 to 70 percent efficient usually. The bigger they are, the more efficient they tend to be. 2. Brushless motors, these use a controller to induce a rotating magnetic field by turning electromagnets on and off in a sequence. They trend 60 to 95 percent efficiency 3. AC motors, Though there are many different type, they function similarly to brushless motors, they simply rely on the AC electricity to turn their electromagnets on and off to generate their field. Anywhere from 15 to 95 percent efficiency. 4. Stepper motors, brushless motors with ferrous teeth to focus magnetic flux. This allows for incredible control at the cost of greater mass and lower torque at higher speeds. Usually 50 to 80 percent efficient but, this depends on control algorithm/speed/and quality of the stepper. 5. Coiled Nylon Actuators! These things have an efficiency rating so low it's best to just say they aren't efficient. What they are though is dirt cheap and easy as heck to make! Don't even think about them, I did and it was awful. 6. Hydraulics! These rely on the distribution of pressure in a working liquid to move things like pistons. Though popular in large scale industry, their ability to be used in waifu's has yet to be proven. (Boston Dynamics Atlas runs on hydraulics but, it's a power guzzler and heavy) 7. Pneumatics, hydraulics lighter sister! This time the fluid is air! This has the advantage in weight. They aren't capable of the same power loads hydraulics are but, who wants their waifu to bench press a car? 8. Wax motors, hydraulic systems where the working fluid is expanding melted parafin wax! Cheap, low power, efficient, and produce incredible torque! Too bad they're slow and hard to control. 9. Explosion! Yes, you can move things through explosions! Gas engines work through explosions! Artificial muscles can be made by exploding a hydrogen and oxygen mixture in a piston, then using hydrolysis to turn the water back into hydrogen and oxygen. None of this is efficient or practical but, it's vital we keep our minds open. Though there are more actuators, most are derivatives or use these examples to work. Things like pulleys need an actuator to move them. Now, let's share, learn, and get our waifu moving! >--- < add'l, related links from Anon: >Soft muscles with origami-inspired skeletons: https://youtu.be/OJO4FP0DXgQ >Cavatappi artificial muscles: https://youtu.be/yXAJGH5s4cs https://youtu.be/MpCFumHFZvU https://www.designnews.com/automation/cavatappi-robot-muscles-have-5-times-strength-human-muscles >Nameless nanofiber muscle, probably Cavatappi: https://youtu.be/H19p43NFqp4 >Supercoiled polymer (SPC) muscles: https://youtu.be/QHiTJ_zgGME https://youtu.be/N4VMoYFrusg https://youtu.be/hFuzQ4ed-t0 https://youtu.be/2GXWIozM4oQ (bundled/braided) >TCP (the same?) https://youtu.be/S4-3_DnKE9E https://youtu.be/wltLEzQnznM >Twisted string actuators (TSA) <I had the idea that they should in some cases be build with a loop. Grippers would hold a part of it and twist that. For fast release they coul let it go and grab the next part of the loop. Designing the gripper will be a bit of a challenge, though. But I think this is doable. Can't image I'm the first having that idea. <Not sure if this here >>12589 is already something like it bc I didn't understand it. <Here's some passive returning mechanism, followed by other videos on TSAs: https://youtu.be/J26y1nn7JMM https://youtu.be/QBQMZsSQJQM (freaking loud) Effect of bending: https://youtu.be/zYrHGMiqC9A Life cycle test setup: https://youtu.be/PABVsuV7Y1M Frequency response ( I don't get it): https://youtu.be/YLWsh1P80Dc Mixed with fluid/gel tube: https://youtu.be/tP9B3aqc4CI Transmission ratio and speed switch: https://youtu.be/Y1uceDzhjKY https://youtu.be/5PtXTI1t3Po <I don't like it being used for fingers but it's a good technology. >Nylon fishing line muscles: https://youtu.be/Za0VeU9Ov7A https://youtu.be/2OuRX65xbKE <(Reminder: The do have a high life span >1M) <I plan to rather use water for heating and cooling. >Continuous ransmission (CVT) / torque converters https://youtu.be/kVPjhmTThPo https://youtu.be/cd2-vsTzd9E https://youtu.be/c9e2y-5DMNc https://youtu.be/PEq5_b4LWNY >Twisted string series elastic actuator (TsSEA) <This strikes me as particular interesting. https://youtu.be/VBXykAIBKtA >Printed pneumatics https://youtu.be/_X0rDW6NQ58 >Using sugar as soluble support material for printing silicone muscles: https://youtu.be/L0Z0-y3qpNk >=== -add add'l links
Edited last time by Chobitsu on 09/06/2021 (Mon) 10:07:57.
>>18019 >bowden cables for robotics >https://youtu.be/ahSS5HUylT8
Limited access to magnets, for whatever reason, could be a showstopper for us. Even if we had copper wire and machines to shape the steel plates for electric motors. No magnets, no servos. Good news, some young guy build a better synchronous reluctance motor - it doesn't need magnets: https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/17-year-old-motor-outperforms-traditional-designs Context: https://youtu.be/ojJHwi3YIus
>>18278 Nice! It'd sure be nice to have this anon participating with us here ITT.
Allegedly muscles which are 17-times stronger than human ones. Equal strength, but useable, would be good enough. >Artificial muscles are indispensable components for next-generation robotics capable of mimicking sophisticated movements of living systems. However, an optimal combination of actuation parameters, including strain, stress, energy density and high mechanical strength, is required for their practical applications. Here we report mammalian-skeletal-muscle-inspired single fibres and bundles with large and strong contractive actuation. The use of exfoliated graphene fillers within a uniaxial liquid crystalline matrix enables photothermal actuation with large work capacity and rapid response. Moreover, the reversible percolation of graphene fillers induced by the thermodynamic conformational transition of mesoscale structures can be in situ monitored by electrical switching. Such a dynamic percolation behaviour effectively strengthens the mechanical properties of the actuator fibres, particularly in the contracted actuation state, enabling mammalian-muscle-like reliable reversible actuation. Taking advantage of a mechanically compliant fibre structure, smart actuators are readily integrated into strong bundles as well as high-power soft robotics with light-driven remote control.
>>18331 Thanks Anon, great paper! (BTW I really appreciate when anons post the actual documents here. :^) If researchers can manage effective implementations of artificial muscles using various carbon forms like graphene and CNT, then we can begin to seriously imagine the sci-fi notions of superhuman-strength robowaifus in the not-too-distant-future IMO.
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>>18339 >superhuman-strength I was more thinking about it in a way that strong muscles will allow to make those muscles smaller and therefore allow more tissue or space being used for energy storage. Maybe it's also more energy efficient to use them within a more human like frame. Also, it could be used for redundancies: Muscles would break down over time, but she would still have more to which she can switch over.
>>18341 Yes, you are absolutely correct anywhere within the near-horizon timeframe, Anon. We are pressing in so literally on the edge for at least a dozen (of the even-more) domains we are tackling together at once in devising our robowaifus -- that even slight improvements should be 'redistributed' as it were back out into the systems as a whole. For the physical robotics parts of the equations, I'd say that 1. mass 2. energy 3. power (ie force) are the top three areas needing extreme efficiencies here (and in that order (>>4313)). >Muscles would break down over time, but she would still have more to which she can switch over. Redundancy is important, maybe even critically-so for certain areas. Any type of 'self-healing' materials or systems we can use will also be of great benefit in general. Beyond that, it certainly rests upon us to also engineer in ease-of-maintenance. From a systems engineering perspective (>>98), this last priority has always proven to be a yuge boon for big projects if its done well (and the converse is also true). >=== -fmt, prose edit
Edited last time by Chobitsu on 12/21/2022 (Wed) 07:34:23.
>>18331 I am pleased to finally come across a "soft" robotic actuator that takes a second or less to actuate and even less time to reverse. I see scaling problems with using radiation to heat a thick bundle because the energy might heat the outer fibers more. I would like to give this a try, but I didn't see the type of elastomer they used, and the graphene filler has its own set of problems to use in a DIY environment. Maybe if a silicone could be altered with liquid crystal particles, used as the elastomer, and (available carbon fillers: carbon black, graphite, chopped carbon fibers), it could achieve softness suitable for cuddles. The last thing I want to say about using cutting edge research is that it's usually unoptimized and hard to implement into a final product, I tried this and failed terribly due to the paper's assumptions (big math formula) that did not hold up to my scenario (I probably did the formula wrong).
>>18392 Thanks for your insight, and for trying.
After watching the Cutieroids video again >From Anime To Reality: Embodying An Anime Character As A Humanoid Robot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEOOpia1EP0 During the Q&A segment, he was asked about Hatsuki walking. He was talking about the limited actuators available that had sufficient torque, etc. So this got me thinking about the incredibly high amount of linear force that relatively-primitive, screw-based, linear actuators can provide today. I mean like tons of PSI with a machined steel system. What if we could arrange two of these vertically in the lower half of a robowaifu's torso, oriented into her hip joints using strong cabling to move her legs around. A) Can we still get enough force to move her if it's a 3D-print with cheap systems (kind of a must for our overall goals here on /robowaifu/ tbh)? B) Can they be made to move quickly enough that she won't seem to be walking through molasses? There are other issues about balance, kinetics, etc., but those are better-suited to the Bipedal Locomotion thread (>>237) on another day. My current concern is more about can we manufacture a pair (quad) of cheaply-manufactured linear actuators with sufficient power & speed to move Hatsuki (and all our own robowaifu designs) around effectively & pleasingly.
>>18421 I think these lead screws are available to buy. But I'm skeptical about your idea, I don't see why using a linear actuator that way would make sense.
>>18424 >I don't see why using a linear actuator that way would make sense. Because of the issue that business guy mentioned (roughly): >"No appropriately-small & appropriately-powerful servos to drive walking in this full-sized robowaifu'' Tucking the actuators up into the lower torso deals with the thrown-weight issue, and their potential for high-power solves the torque requirements for leg-actuation. The primary issues to solve are the two I mentioned: 1. inexpensive production 2. high-speed actuation
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>>18421 Linear screw actuators are ideal for applications requiring high accuracy and force. A humanoid robots legs would benefit. Teslabot uses an advanced ball screw actuator as a good example. 3D printed linear actuators frankly don't make sense for waifus. Filament prints have highly uneven surfaces that generate noise and heat, reducing efficiency. Luckily, because 3D printers have made steppers and lead screws cheap and abundant, they can be adapted for our use easily. A NEMA 17 stepper with a leadscrew can efficiently provide newtons of force. They require constant current to hold position though. Natsuki Cutieroid will never walk simply because her design prohibits it. She's a heavy lumbering show piece. Which is fine, she's built to be beautiful rather than functional.
>>18441 >Luckily, because 3D printers have made steppers and lead screws cheap and abundant, they can be adapted for our use easily. Hey you're right! They're everywhere. Hmmm. What about this then: putting the NEMA 17's (four of them?) up in the lower torso, lead screws directed near to the hip joint areas, and some kind of teflon-lined 'ball-socket'(term?) on the screw ends, which connects to and drives a lever action system which in turn moves the legs? By using a lever system rather than cabling, this should simplify increasing the actuation response-rate of the legs. This is needed since the screw actuators can deliver abundant force, but only slowly. The tradeoff in design here is higher strains locally at the joints & connectors, needing tougher/heavier materials; and also increased strain on the steppers (and batteries), leading to more heat & shorter stepper-lifespans. A cable-pulley system could ameliorate some of these issues, at the cost of greater mechanical & design complexities + increased maintenance costs. Slower response-rates, too. Actually, I think if we can devise a system where the levers are the leg's skellingtons, then we've probably found the sweet spot tbh. As to 'locking-off' the leg positions, why not devise some sort of clamping system that will act as a brake (maybe a tiny, actuated, alloy disc-brake system fastened orthogonally to the screw-axis?) right on the screws themselves? That way the steppers (and the batteries!!) can take a much-needed 'rest'. :^) BTW, it seems to me this would also be an efficient approach to the 'back-driveable' safety problem as well (ie, just 'let off' the brakes in a moderated fashion). Great input Kiwi. BTW, can you link to technical sauce on Teslabots pls? >=== -prose edit
Edited last time by Chobitsu on 12/26/2022 (Mon) 03:50:45.
>>18441 >Filament prints have highly uneven surfaces that generate noise and heat, reducing efficiency. What about wrapping every printed surface that must slide against each other (such as a linear screw actutor's) with a metric-boatload of plumber's tape? Surely this would greatly reduce the friction coefficient between the two surfaces?
>>18441 >Linear screw actuators are ideal for applications requiring high accuracy and force I'm not convinced that walking is about high precision motors, though, but I might be wrong of course. I think sensors and fast reaction is more important. That aside, I always saw bipedal walking without help and long distances as a luxury for the more advanced models. Ignoring that requirement has always been one of the points why we can pull it off in the first place. She either rolls, has an additional device or gets help. >Steppers Steppers are heavy compare to their power, though. Therefore they might be good for waifus which aren't mobile, or not much, or maybe for rolling waifus with slowly moveable joints, but not for walking. I feel we're chewing up the same points over and over again. >They require constant current to hold position though Sorry, but this is clearly not the case with a stepper plus lead screw, otherwise 3D printer arms would move down automatically after you turn your printer off. >>18444 Okay, good luck with that. I just don't get the part where you have lead screws but make them pull something, instead of getting the servo closer and use gears. Ironically, you were the one always preaching how mass matters and that it should be close to the hips. >>18449 Sounds good for parts where it fits, but ball bearings aren't that expensive either. We also have the options of metal plating and ceramical paint. If it's a pole rotating in a hole, then a little metal tube cut added to at least one side might be sufficient.
Someone asked in anther thread about "inexpensive linear-screw actuators" and I just had I think a really good idea. Ok the thread could be made of "all-thread". This is a standard material in all mechanical supply houses and you should be able to get it in the electrical or plumbing department of big box DIY stores. It's just what it says, a long rod of thread. Use nuts to crawl up the thread by rotation. I'm constantly going on about switched reluctance motors because I can see nothing cheap. High silicon iron, conductors, a couple MOSFETS, a microcontroller and coils of wire for the fields. Tesla is moving to a hybrid switched reluctance motor(SRM) because nothing has more power or less cost than this, so far. Here's a great brief article on SRM. https://www.controleng.com/articles/resurgence-for-sr-motors-drives/
Cont. If the (toothed)rotor is attached to a nut and a big washer AND the inner rotor is attached to all of these when the rotor rotates it will crawl up or down the all thread. If you have washers above it then the washers will squeeze the silicon or foam or whatever used to simulate muscle and it will fatten as it crawls up the rod and look much like regular muscle. The stator will be attached to the muscle to keep it from rotating.
>>18771 >switched reluctance motors because I can see nothing cheap should be nothing "as" cheap
Instead of steel rod, all thread, I think the best way is to put the SRM inside the bone. It would have a string that rolls up on the rotor of the motor inside the bone. Just like a fishing line comes from the top of the rod, makes a 90 degree turn and rolls up on a spool. The string goes out the bone and makes a 180 degree turn. What it runs through is foam that has a covering. When the foam, rubber, silicon, whatever the simulated muscle material is, is pulled by the string from inside the bone it contracts AND it expands like muscle. It would look just like this air actuator. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_artificial_muscles Imagine, instead of air pushing the walls out, the process of shrinking the foam muscle (pulling the ends in) would push the foam out looking the same as a muscle contracting. It wouldn't have to be foam. It could be air bags with a stiff covering just like that on the air muscle. The process of shortening it would cause it to expand like muscle. I give a lot of calculations on how many microprocessors, MOSFETS, forces needed and stuff like that here. Rough calculation on cost, forces needed and the number of muscles needed for full human mimicry.(the micro-controller cost might be less) >>12014 Rough equivalence to the force Tesla gets out of their cars to human actual forces >>12140 Rough cost budget of actual existing transistor and micro-controller parts to get full human mimicry >>12172
Read the article on the SRM I linked above. These things are like magic. Huge RPM with super fast control and lots of power. One of the advantages of putting them in the bone is that you could mass produce a limited amount of sizes. Say five. They could stacked for extra power. So little muscles, little motors turning a solid rod, (on which the string is wound up to pull the muscle). If you need more power you just slide another motor down on the rod and run it in series. Power leads could go down through the bone saving you a lot of trouble routing. The only thing I can see better is "Dielectric Elastomers" but I don't really know how to make these easily. They require further research. They would be great but how to make work???? Links Here's a link to a good book on these called "Dielectric Elastomers as Electromechanical Transducers: Fundamentals, Materials, Devices, Models and Applications of an Emerging Electroactive Polymer Technology" >>8502 Dielectric Elastomers can also be used as sensors A good page with links to 100 papers on Dielectric elastomers >>8505
>>18771 >switched reluctance motors I mentioned those before (not claiming to be the first one here on board). Recently they came up in the news, but I can't find the link. Anyways, costs and availability are the issue. Where can I get them? Are they even working with low power and voltage or does it only matter for something like a car? >>18772 I thought about faking muscle movements before and like how you are thinking. I thought about using air for it, but I'm open to ideas. Anyways it's for later optimization. For now we even didn't build a hard shell robot. Also, please keep noise in mind.
>>18781 >I mentioned those before (not claiming to be the first one here on board). Recently they came up in the news, but I can't find the link. We have a tool for just this type of need, Anon. (waifusearch v0.2a - >>8678) >reluctance Also, there's a new entry in our library for this word now (>>18786).
>>18775 This sounds like an innovative concept Anon. Any chance you could make a sketch of your ideas here? >I give a lot of calculations on how many microprocessors, MOSFETS, forces needed and stuff like that here. If you can share a brief >tl;dr consolidation here for this new idea here too, it would probably be helpful to us all. >>18776 >Say five. They could stacked for extra power. If we can stack motors vertically up the inside of bones, that would be a big win for us all regarding volume. Two for one and all. Volume consolidation is always a critical consideration for us, expecially during these early prototyping years.
>>18776 >Dielectric Elastomers New library entry for this one too, Anon (>>18791).
>>18787 >We have a tool for just this type of need, Anon. >(waifusearch v0.2a - >>8678) Ha, I knew if I would write this, that this would be the answer. :) You're right, I just didn't install it yet on my other computer.
>>18781 >Anyways, costs and availability are the issue. Where can I get them? Are they even working with low power and voltage or does it only matter for something like a car? I thought about faking muscle movements before and like how you are thinking. I thought about using air for it, They do make them smaller. It's works for ANY size motor. It appears to me that most all motors are moving to SRM. They are in air conditioners, and all sorts of stuff. The reason is microcontrollers. Without them they are noisy and rough. You have to use the MC to create a pulse width modulation PWM output that's linked to the speed of the rotor and what speed you want the rotor to get up to. What this is is a fake sinewave. Normal motors, some anyways, you can hook right up to normal house power. Can't do that with SRM. You have to control the rotor with a computer. But some of these are like less than a dollar. The one I keep pushing, and I have no financial interest in them, is anywhere from $4 individual to to $15 each for the board version. The motor itself I don't know where to buy them. The are mostly embedded. The good news is you can make them from sheet metal, or better transformer type metal sheets. For DIY I think the best way would be to shear the sheets out with a die and a stamp. I'm still thinking about this. maybe you could make serviceable ones with washers cut in two. Here's I think a better paper than the first I linked. A significant quote,"...Switched reluctance motors exploit the fact that the forces from a magnetic field on the iron in the rotor can be up to ten times greater than the magnetic forces on the current carrying conductors....". That's a lot. https://www.machinedesign.com/motors-drives/article/21826520/are-switchedreluctance-motors-for-you and the quick link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_reluctance_motor
I don't care for Pneumatic muscles for what I think are good reasons. They are not very efficient. They are noisy. They can be slow unless you have higher pressures and big pressure reservoirs. The valves must be controlled wioth a transister and a microcontrollor. Well then you buying a valve AND the same parts needed t do something electric which will be likely more efficient, faster and less costly. These pneumatic valves are not cheap. The problem with SRM s you will likely have to make them but sheet metal will do for starters and experimentation. Later you can get better materials, coils, etc. These rotors are just flat sheets of metal glued together. That's all. Look at this video to give you some idea, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3qWBmz-j2k This is a ford not Tesla, see at time 11:05 he is going to show you the sheet metal laminations. This has magnets but you do not have to have them. I think they are for better starting torque but I don;t know for sure. We will likely leave these out for cost reduction. And make sure you understand this is just one configuration. The rotor can be shaped many ways. Although if the car companies are doing it this way likely a good reason. You can also see if you have a metal stamp you could stamp out the slots and then glue these together.
BTW this is Sandy Munro. He's been in the manufacturing business for decades and his company takes things apart and provides cost accounting and also he helps companies cut cost and raise quality by redesigning things to be low cost and fast to put together, He's great and very knowledgeable but not so charismatic. Old school engineer. He has a bunch of Tesla tear down videos where he shows you all the guts. Chobitsu asked for some drawings and stuff. I will but it may take a little time.
Thanks for the waifusearch v0.2a I was looking for just that a couple days ago and couldn't find it.
A video that shows how Tesla motors work. It's a modified SRM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esUb7Zy5Oio
>>18824 MAGNETS; How do they work? That was interesting and helpful, thanks.
>>18822 > Sandy Munro Very impressive engineer tbh. >Chobitsu asked for some drawings and stuff. I will but it may take a little time. No rush. It will be useful for understanding but we still have time before it's needed I think.
>>18823 >I was looking for just that a couple days ago and couldn't find it. Be sure to use the latest JSON archives with the tool as well. Both are always linked in our Library thread, Grommet (>>7143).
Another good video. This one is not super clear. The subject is complicated but it's all there. This is one of those you need to watch several times to grasp. Tesla Model 3's motor - The Brilliant Engineering behind it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esUb7Zy5Oio
You'll have to suffer my retard drawing skills. I can't draw and I'm using a trackball to do so. The drawing shows a bone with internal motor. The motor is mounted on a rotating shaft. The shaft has a cable wound around it. The motor turns, winds up the cable on the shaft and pulls the cable. Its very much like a fishing pole reel that winds up on a spool but in this case it's a small rod it winds up on. The small rod means lots of torque for a small motor. In this case our motor is fast, so winding up a small rod is quick. The cable goes through the bone end where on a human the tendon is attached. Cable travels up to bone it is pulling and is attached to it. So it pulls much like a muscle but the pulling part is the motor inside the bone. Around the cable is a silicon, air inflated bag, foam, or whatever to simulate muscle. This is covered in a fairly non flexible weave just like in the air muscle I linked above. This gives the appearance of the muscle expanding just like real muscle. In fact it doesn't but it looks like normal muscle expansion. I will add another post next with another drawing to flesh out the idea a little.
This drawing shows how with three motors and cables you can control any joint. The top is a side view. The bottom is a bit of a retarded view looking along or somewhat down the bone. Maybe you will get this additional idea. There may be in a human more than three muscles controlling a joint. But understand you really only need three motors for any joint positional movement. But to simulate more muscles you could put more than one cable on each motor spreading out to "simulate" more than one muscle. Each additional cable would have an attachment point like a normal muscle and have fake muscle foam, or whatever, to show it as expanding like normal muscle. It may be that this is not needed. I haven't studied intensively all muscles. But even if more are needed we can fake it with only three motors per joint but adding extra cables and foam expanding muscles. Now I show this second drawing with all internal cable pulls attached to the bone internally. In fact the more accurate robowaifu simulation would be like the first drawing with cables going through the bone and exiting out of the same area on a human where the tendons attach, then attaching at the top of the muscle on the bone being controlled. Just like the first drawing. It would look just like real muscles and tendons. Some advantages of this idea. The motors could be made in a few sizes and be mounted on the rod cable spools. Make a small size motor and then add motors for more torque by making the rod/spool longer with more motors. The mounting, the motors and rods all being the same. Saves you from making a huge amount of different motors. Make say...three sizes. All the rest of the changes in torque could be made up by varying the number of motors mounted on the rod. Having motors internal makes for a sleek look, less noise, and you can detail the covering without worrying about what to do with the motors. Power can be routed through the bones once again making a neat package out of the way. Mounting the motors as I did is for a reason. Our motors must be small in diameter to fit into the bone, so the torque of the motor is dependent on how long it is. By making a long vertical motor we can get good torque in a small diameter package. Also as noted they can be stacked.
>>18895 >>18896 I see. Excellent, that gets the ideas across really well Grommet. So do you think multiple moters can be stacked up, each one tasked with pulling different 'ligaments'?
I made a mistake saying only three motors needed for each joint. While trying to count how many I needed I realized, Duuoh! that they need to twist. With just three I don't think you can do this. So I'll have to rethink this. Three motors for most movement will work but some extras will be needed for twist. Off hand I think you would need 6 motors to twist in a human like movement which is what I'm aiming for.
>>18897 >you think multiple moters can be stacked up, each one tasked with pulling different 'ligaments'? EXACTLY! This also means the motors can be aligned along the inside of the bone with routing of the ligaments in different areas. This gives us more diameter for the motors because they are stacked. Makes no difference the length of the ligaments. They all exit the bone from the normal human tendon location so they can be routed differently. I envision the bone being made in a split fashion. The inside of the bone would have mounting points for the different motors and controller. After mounting motors, MOSFET power transistor, micro-controller, routing wiring, connecting ligaments, you put the bone together. It could be wedged like wood working, with a few small screws, just like pegs in wood furniture construction to lock closed. It could be rough as the whole thing will be covered. Heat may become a problem depending on work load. May have to put controllers on one end and motors on other. Possibly might have to have some sort of water circulation for cooling. This is going out there a little and is further down the line but maybe the heat from these could be routed to bladders that are our fake muscles. Making waifu warm. So the excess heat from motors, controllers, etc. warms the waifu. Further down the line, but thinking out loud about it. For "lite" work you could probably get by with some metal heat spreaders connected to the bone material. If you are going to have it do heavy work, a lot of heat to dissipate. Maybe 400 watts or so. 400 watts is human athlete working fairly hard, so a lot. One horsepower equals 746 watts. A horse is fairly powerful but we will want that kind of power to use waifus for elderly care. BIG market and will also keep people from banning them because the elderly vote like crazy and if you try to ban their waifus they will revolt. Hair dryer is around 1,000 watts so that gives you an idea of the heat created. I think in the beginning it would pay great rewards to add temperature measurement interior to the bone to see just what kind of temps are created and then work up some sort of programming that stopped it if it was getting over heated. If heat a big problem "then" think about liquid cooling or something like that. Any liquid stuff added is going to be a mess and should be avoided if possible. On the other hand I think it's inevitable that if you want warm human feel and touch you will eventually add some sort of circulating liquid. Maybe in the muscles as I said. Maybe there's other ways to heat and if they could be found and not use liquid it would be better. I see using liquid as the "no thought" first case, go to, idea but a far superior way would be to find some no liquid way so the thing would not leak all over. Air circulation maybe? I have no doubt if you fill it with liquid over time the thing will spring a leak.
On the elderly angle. No matter what you do you will be involved in politics and Women will try their best to ban these and they have more political power. So the sneaky cheat way to do this is sell them for the elderly but make the outer skin and unlayment so it can be changed to a sex bot. This is why I think the skeleton, the muscles should be separate. Over this a skin and simulated fat layer could be placed like a full body sock. Kind of like those stocking/pants that little girls wear, but full body. You could sell the same bot with no genitals and then add whatever you wanted. I've got all kinds of ideas on this. One I mentioned before is to hell with silicon. I think that microfiber stuff they make towels out of mixed with a little stretch fiber would be ideal. This stuff is really soft and washable easily. Train the waifu to wash itself by getting in the shower. And by changing the underlying fat layer you could change the look. New skin would be cost effective to change every so often.
The idea for the fake muscle is shown in Hik's post >>16629 and here >>14018 The arm attachment is shown in another comment I made >>13226
>>18899 >I envision the bone being made in a split fashion. The inside of the bone would have mounting points for the different motors and controller. After mounting motors, MOSFET power transistor, micro-controller, routing wiring, connecting ligaments, you put the bone together. It could be wedged like wood working, with a few small screws, just like pegs in wood furniture construction to lock closed. It could be rough as the whole thing will be covered. I think that's a reasonable approach to the design and construction for these robowaifu power-skeletons. Thrown-weight is always an issue, so you want to keep the mass of the motors as near to the bone's proximal pivot point (eg, the hip joint, in the case of a thigh bone) as feasible. Yes, it's a good idea to separate the heat of the motors and controllers -- spread it out. Since the controllers are far less massive, they can be situated down at the distal end of a bone w/o too many penalties I think. Also, glad to see you already thinking ahead about manufacturing rigging, Anon. Such tooling is always essential if you're building anything more than a one-off. >heat dissipation Yes, heat will always be an issue for our robowaifus. While I think it would be very nice if we could limit ourselves to a heat-collection system made up primarily out of flexible air tubing (for several reasons), in the end I believe the laws of physics will dictate that mostly we'll use water tubing instead. The specific-heat ratio between the two is crazy. We'll find an effective means to use liquid cooling I'm sure, Anon. >>18900 >On the elderly angle. No matter what you do you will be involved in politics and Women will try their best to ban these and they have more political power. So the sneaky cheat way to do this is sell them for the elderly but make the outer skin and unlayment so it can be changed to a sex bot. I've stated here more than once I believe that monetizing companion robotics at a big-time scale will happen first within patient-care scenarios. Those who simply want sexbots can already get those from existing suppliers. But we here want waifus; I think there is a huge amount of crossover for that with the needs of elderly & patient-care. So yeah. Good ideas about the modularity systems extending even to the shells & skins. That approach will be essential anyway once robowaifus become wildly popular, ofc. Good ideas, Grommet. Keep 'em coming! :^) >=== -minor prose edit
Edited last time by Chobitsu on 01/20/2023 (Fri) 13:54:26.
>>18903 That type of crosslinking is very helpful for robowaifu researchers, Anon. Thanks, and please keep it up! :^)
>>13229 I'll add one more cross link. It's figuring force needed to lift something and then converting this to watts. Very handy because that tells you what size of wire, what type of transistors you need, how many and what batteries needed to drive the waifu. Bunch of basic stuff. I believe as a general rule a good short cut to finding the amps needed at a certain voltage use, find pound force>convert to newtons>use amount in newtons to directly substitute for number of watts need for force Example in above link.
>>18972 This kind of stuff is always important and helpful. If we can keep the weight of things down, that's the best, first step I think.
Orca Series from Iris Dynamics: https://youtu.be/xZ7T1H1uPSc Any opinions on this? The smallest one might be small enough for a thigh in a human-sized gynoid. Not relevant this year, I guess, but worth to keep an eye one. >Orca 6-24V >Optimised for 24V >Peak Power 899 W >Max Force 394 N (89 lbf) >Force Accuracy ±0.24 N (0.053 lbf) >Positional Accuracy ±150 μm (±0.0059 in) >Acoustics < 20dB >Force Controlled >Traditional motors are position or velocity controlled. This means their logic controllers deliver commands to move to a specific position or at a specific velocity. Our motors are inherently force controlled which means they can feel the force they are imparting. This is a critical safety feature in applications where that force is imparted upon a person as our motor will know when it encounters an object and can back off or apply lower force. https://youtu.be/pmwMfgaGuyU
>>18980 That's remarkable Anon, thanks. I like how the design seems pretty rugged under challenging environmental conditions. Any idea what one of these actuators that might be tuned for, say, lifting a robowaifu's thigh from the hip might weigh?
>>18984 >lifting a robowaifu's thigh from the hip might weigh? I didn't look into their data sheet. I would just look for the lightest one. I most likely won't need that kind of actuator within the next one or two years, and if I consider it later then it might differ anyways. There would also very likely be another servo in the hip involve to get her to stand up. These fast and regular movements made me more thinking of walking and dancing. Well, okay now I look: >2.23 kg for the stator and 1.38 kg for the shaft More than I anticipated, though I guess the shaft might be able to be made lighter by using a custom design. So it might be useful for the later and heavier robowaifu designs, which isn't a surprise.
>>19005 >So it might be useful for the later and heavier robowaifu designs, which isn't a surprise. Yes, eventually we'll be manufacturing more automotive-quality-like robowaifus, once the basic & inexpensive robowaifus kits, etc., are are off the ground and flying along.

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