>>30308 Good news on the battery fire front or lack there of. I was watching some electric sail boat stuff, and they now have solid state batteries. You can drive a nail through them and they won't catch on fire. They have super long life of 12,000 cycles and comparative energy density. I've read before that they can be higher. @7:00 EXCLUSIVE_ Secrets Shared by Marine Battery Manufacturers _ Step 381 They have tested it so it will be product soon. This won't help right away but the fact that they have production tested cells means not so very long they will have more of them. The advantages in lifetime and safety will likely drive the market to them.

>>30348 Wouldnt the right battery size be more like something for an ebike, moped or motorcycle?

>>30348 Yes, solid state batteries are being talked about for quite some time, and they might become very interesting, but it needs to be a real product and available in the right size made for hobbyists and robots in particular. >>30350 >something for an ebike, moped or motorcycle Still too big. At least the later two.

>>30356 its been a thing since forever its just not used as a battery most of the time because its no where near as effective as a chemical battery, dont think there will ever be anything better than liion

So a while ago I did this long calculation based on the energy used by humans to do work and an estimate of what power would be needed by a waifu here, >>13408 So today I'm looking a site where they have an actual humanoid robot built now and they say they will have a 2.25 KWh battery pack. https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2024/08/figure-2-humanoid-bot.html My estimate, 2,500W/h. So yes I'm bragging. I wonder what their robot sells for? I estimated a total cost at the link, and I think it could be cheaper but with all the bells and whistles, materials alone $10,846. The highest cost in my estimates was in muscles $6000 and batteries $1,960. Silicon and miscellaneous was also high at $1,000 which is realistic if you use a good deal of it. It's expensive. Before I have mentioned I thought you could get a waifu for $3,000. I'm not so sure now. It would be really hard. You would have to do some sort of miracle, and I think it can be done, for muscles, and likely it would have limited battery power. The price of batteries has come down and if you limited the waifu to easy work, a lot of sitting around and maybe frequent recharges then you could likely chop the battery cost to 25%, lower the electronics cost to $600 (tough to do and a close call), lose the silicon and miscellaneous for $1,000 and crush it to $100 you get $3,056. But that's no profit. I think it would not be too tough to get a material cost of $4,000 but this doesn't include labor and it also does not include making the machinery, molds, etc. you would need to make these in quantity. I believe at the original $10,000 USD cost you could build these, include labor and make a profit but it would take a long time to get back the labor you spent on design and equipment to build these. My guess is they will sell these bots at over $40,000 to account for all these cost. Maybe as high as $75,000 to get some good return on their money. Now this may seem silly to try and cost these but even if the numbers are wrong they give you some sort of guideline on where you need to trim or be super creative to cut cost. Muscles are the biggest. I don't believe we can cut too much on the electronics or batteries. We have no control over those but muscle cost is something we do so it would seem that effort there would be rewarding. I haven't included a dime for touch sensing because I have no idea how to do this cheaply. It's a difficult problem. So far I assume if something doesn't come up you will have to use position sensing and force feedback from the muscles to tell if something is being touched and how hard. Not very elegant, At all but that's what is "cost effective" right now that I can see. The shin and meat on it is also something that needs to be thought about. I have some ideas but they are not whole yet. Bones I think are not too difficult. Cheapest would be concrete and wire mesh. Also Titebond 3 glue and fiber would likely be fine. Cartilage, HDPE is the cheapest. Used milk bottles would work, melted into shape, with string tendons. Just some thoughts.

>>32819 First of all: 2.25 KWh battery is not 2.25 KW per hour consumption in a regular use case. I mean, it doesn't say the robot will need that amount, unless it's supposed to work for one hour (didn't read the linked article). It could work less time or more than an hour. Also, this is a robot walking around for a while and working. It was never realistic to get that for less than 20k as a fully build robot or for even less than 5k. That said, our waifus would sit around much more, and shouldn't need to carry anything heavy. Maybe water containers in some areas, lifting one to fill some can. Or lifting a toddler a little bit (not walking and carrying it around anytime soon). Maybe a 5kg pet.

>>32819 >I wonder what their robot sells for? My guess at this early stage is that Figure AI is trying to compete directly with Tesla's Optimus [1]. Since Elon's stated 'eventual' price point is about US$20K, then I'd imagine the cost of Figure 02 should eventually settle out on a similar amount. Competition for both of them (and others) with the baste Chinese may quickly drive these cost numbers lower, however [2]. Let us hope so!! :D --- 1. related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEiHJIqRZok 2. 1Bn Optimus'-related : ( >>32829 ) >=== -fmt, prose edit -add hotlink, crosslink footnotes -retract funpost, apparently I was wrong lol

>>32826 >Elon's stated 'eventual' price point is about US$20K I hadn't heard that. I think he could easily get there if the compute was not too expensive. I'm fairly sure I could build one for 10K, likely less, but I couldn't do the programming. I read Elon's self driving chip cost, if I remember correctly, $35. I think this was from a Jim Keller interview who helped design it. He has two in a Tesla car. You can bet his robot likely has the same processors to cut cost. "...Each Tesla AI chip runs at 2GHz and performs 36 trillion operations per second. That performance is possible because Tesla optimized the chips for self-driving cars and dropped anything more general purpose, said Debjit Das Sarma, another Tesla chip designer and former AMD engineer. For example, the chip handles data recorded as 8-bit integers instead of the 16-bit floating-point numbers more common in AI tasks but that require more power to process. For another, it's got an extremely limited set of instructions it can process. And it's got a gargantuan 32 megabytes of high-speed SRAM memory on the chip, which means it doesn't have to wait around while fetching data from much slower conventional DRAM memory...." https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/meet-tesla-self-driving-car-computer-and-its-two-ai-brains/ (36 trillion operations per second) damn that's fast We were talking about how likely a lot of stuff could be 8 bit and that seems to be true, or at least for self driving. Robots should be the same. It's going to be tough to find something with that speed and mass of built in memory. All that memory on the same chip is like a cache memory and means it can haul ass on compute with the focused task it has. All these 32 bit chips power are wasted when you only need 8-bits. Comparing two 32 bit and the 8-bit take the same amount of time. Maybe we could cheat by having less RAM and use SSD, "...Currently, the maximum speed for an NVMe PCIe 3.0 (aka Gen 3) SSD is up to 3,500MB per second, while a NVMe PCIe 4.0 (aka Gen 4) SSD can hit up to 7,500MB per second..." NVMe PCIe 3.0 (aka Gen 3) SSD 3,500MB = $128 or so. It's likely for us the sweet spot on cost would be to buy a standard PC motherboard with room for a lot of RAM, NVMe PCIe slot and maybe a mass produced one generation back processor. When I buy motherboards every few years that's what I do. Usually I get like two generations back. So the latest processor might be $1,000 I get something for around $100-120 or so. Any older and cost goes up and the performance is not worth the money unless you are a game freak. And I don't play any games. Of course lately I've been lusting for AI power for making graphics, but it's soooo expensive. What I have now is perfect for what I mostly do but useless for AI work.

>>3282 > 2.25 KWh battery is not 2.25 KW per hour consumption in a regular use case. Yeh, could be 225W for 10 hours. I think they were figuring 20 hours. I found, "...Over an 8-hour work shift, an average, healthy, well-fed and motivated manual laborer may sustain an output of around 75 watts of power...."

>>32848 >I hadn't heard that He mentioned it during his 2024 Tesla shareholder meeting : ( >>31772 ) . >You can bet his robot likely has the same processors to cut cost. It does. They have one in the chest (exactly where I'm urging Anons to locate the 'breadbox' [a cooled Faraday cage+protective frame] for their robowaifus). BTW, this AI "chip" is actually a largish assembly of about 1ft^2 in area (think chip carrier on steroids). You can check out the first Tesla AI Day event to see it. >(36 trillion operations per second) damn that's fast Certainly impressive, but nothing like what's coming in the future! :D >It's going to be tough to find something with that speed and mass of built in memory. We won't need to IMO. We're already on a trajectory to deliver robowaifus at a much-lower cost factor, and using nothing more than commodity, specialized compute hardware suited to amateur DIY'rs (RPis, ESP32s, etc.). We may devise some custom encoders if we can't find suitable ones for things like the knuckles, eyes, etc., but other than that we are looking at COTS stuff+3D-printed physical components. The actuators are the biggest cost-factor, by far (since the software [at least ours] will all be free-as-in-speech & free-as-in-beer). >muh home server My intent is to do everything onboard the robowaifu. Any other approach will preclude smooth-and-fun Walk&Picnic in the Park days with robowaifu -- OBVIOUSLY A VERY-HIGH PRIORITY DESIGN GOAL!! : ( cf. >>32036 ) :DD OTOH, having a detachable-randoseru for extra battery/compute/cooling capacity is a given for my designs during these early years. Also, a home server (-room?) setup is a must if you want to produce private & custom -trained language models, etc., as well. >=== -minor edit

>>32851 >We're already on a trajectory to deliver robowaifus at a much-lower cost factor, and using nothing more than commodity, specialized compute hardware I ran across some astound new micro-controller parts and commented on them in the MC thread here, >>32871 Truly amazing stuff and huge enablers.

Really good news o the battery front. “Natron Energy to build GW-scale sodium-ion battery factory in U.S.The new planned manufacturing facility will produce 24 GW” American company. No rare earths or limited minerals. It uses sodium and Prussian blue , a iron based compound used as blue paint. All cost effective stuff. I think it might be possible to make one of these from scratch. Charges way, way faster. Order of magnitude. Last longer, does not overheat, does not catch on fire. Look at their specs. They don’t compare to Lithium-iron phosphate which has better specs, but theirs are still good. https://natron.energy/our-technology They are aiming for bulk storage first. Industrial stuff. Which makes sense. Less packaging, less cost to start. THis could eventually drive the cost of batteries to very low levels. A rule of thumb is you can mass produce a product for 10% over material cost. A rough but fairly valid rule and the cost of this stuff is next to nothing.

>>32997 Very encouraging, Anon... here's to hoping your prediction comes true! Cheers. :^)

>>32997 A glitch in the sodium prussian blue battery. Not as good Wh/kg. Basically between lead acid and Li-ion. 70Wh/kg. Though this is not really a total disadvantage. Especially if it is cheap. The advantages of it are very high.

>>32997 >>33013 >doesn't catch fire That's all I need to hear. Less energy density is a perfectly acceptable tradeoff for not having to worry about catastrophic battery failure when I'm cuddling mai waifu.

>>33015 >Less energy density is a perfectly acceptable tradeoff for not having to worry about catastrophic battery failure when I'm cuddling mai waifu. THIS.

Related: >>33073 > Post-apocalyptic power supply, EMP robustness, internal solar steam driven energy support

>>37810 Excellent OP, OP. Thanks! :^) <---> >those Sukabu's tho... That man is a brilliant, hip (see what I did there? :D concept designer tbh.

>>33015 I still stand by LiFePO4 as the ideal battery for robowaifu. They do not burn like Li-Ion. Generally, the only way they can catch fire is if they're punctured in such a way that exposes more Li than electrolyte in a high humidity environment or underwater. They can also burn if you try to bake them in an oven, so don't put 'em in a cake. :^) In all seriousness, they're more than safe enough for our needs. You'd be plenty safe snuggled up to a cute little pone wife. >>37814 Thanks! I'm trying to imitate his hip designs for MaidCom. Be a week or two before I have anything worth showing though. To keep this post on topic, I also like the idea of a mobile battery/server to follow or serve as a base for, our cute robots, as seen in picrel.

>>37817 >I still stand by LiFePO4 as the ideal battery for robowaifu. Is it the kind of battery system that's a) available from multiple vendors (re: GreerTech's recent admonition about this on the bunker), and b) available in smol form-factors suitable for placing inside our robowaifu's torsos? >>37817 > I also like the idea of a mobile battery/server to follow or serve as a base for, our cute robots, as seen in picrel. I do too! For Lin's platform design (or wheelchair -oriented waifus in general), or for my concept designs for Buckey (the little pony steed for dear Sumomo-chan), they can not only serve as mobility platforms, but can also serve as mobile power docks. <---> As to longer-term, more flexible solutions (picnics in the local park, picnics off the beaten paths, picnics at the top of big mountains!! :D , it seems like we'll need some type of battery backpack systems. Both for Master & robowaifu. (And ofc also lightweight, foldout, solar-panel replenishment systems : cf. >pic#3 - OP ITT.) And just now while sharing this -- it also occurred to me there's plent of waste heat sources. What about some kind of smol Stirling Engine type mechanism that might generate replenishment electricity from those little butane (or other fuels) camp stoves? Maybe even from old-school log fires? And also via thermoelectric systems, maybe? :^)

>>37818 External combustion is pretty nice. The combustion chamber(fire box) is simple and quiet and can take fuel with more minerals. Many working fluids and pressures also works or is efficient with smaller heat differences. Its mostly limited by surface volume for heat transfer which isn't that much of an issue for constant low power acting like APU. The best fuel from the forest would be dead falls of sticks and branches or dead grass in grassland during dry season. Internal combustion would have issue with the ashes. Mostly they have low power but most animal locomotion consume very little and battery can handle to peaks in power consumption. Many configurations are available. With pistons and a crank shaft, it is a stirling engine, with a pump and turbine its a rankine cycle.

>>37840 Great information, Anon. Thank you very much! Do you happen to have links and such for information about these things? Regardless, thanks again that's encouraging sounding. Cheers. :^)

>>37818 >available from multiple vendors Assuming the listings are genuine, I see plenty of sellers on Amazon, as well as other smaller retailers >available in smol form-factors suitable for placing inside our robowaifu's torsos? Yes, there are individual cells available in standard sizes >lightweight, foldout, solar-panel replenishment systems There are these fold-out solar panels that you can buy. They're larger than an umbrella though. >stirling engine That's a really good idea. As >>37840 said, you can use any dry organic material you find, or even dry trash like papers. It's like the Mr. Fusion from Back to the Future II >And also via thermoelectric systems, maybe? :^) Thermoelectric is too inefficient for this role

ferrocene flow battery formula Fe (C5H5)2 "Long-lasting flow battery could run for more than a decade with minimum upkeep Battery stores energy in nontoxic, noncorrosive aqueous solutions" https://seas.harvard.edu/news/2017/02/long-lasting-flow-battery-could-run-more-decade-minimum-upkeep A link to the paper https://sci-hub.ru/10.1021/acsenergylett.7b00019

>>37843 >I see plenty of sellers on Amazon >Yes, there are individual cells available in standard sizes That's encouraging, thanks Anon! >It's like the Mr. Fusion from Back to the Future II Lel'd. :^) >tfw ywn 1.21 jiggawatts w/ ur waifu... <y even tho <---> >Thermoelectric is too inefficient for this role I haven't had time to study it yet in any but the most-cursory fashion. Any other applications you can think of for it within/without our robowaifus? Component cooling, maybe?

>>37859 Thanks! This would be amazing if it became a human-frenly marketable product. Also, did you know that the baste Chinese are now manufacturing commercial RTG batteries now!? Like 50yrs lifetime (ofc highly-lethal for humans to be around for any length of time, lol).

Looking at the ferrocene paper it's roughly(I'm averaging) .8 volts x .05 amps x 16 hours = .64 Wh/cubic centimeter = 640Wh/cubic liter, so a couple of liters should do. Maybe 3 or 4 at the extreme. This is doable.

>>37863 Neat. How much mass would 2 liters be, do you think?

>>37866 >ferrocene 1.49 gram per cubic centimeter or 1 490 kilogram per cubic meter so 1.49 gr. x 1cubic centimeter/1,000 liter=1,490 g= 1.49kg

that was for 1kg

>>37882 That doesn't seem way out-of-band or anything.

>>37861 Those Chinese batteries are using Beta particles, high-speed electrons, which can be blocked by a thin sheet of aluminium. That's why the peple who say that the US never went to the Moon due to radiatio in the van Allen belt are ignorant fools. The radiation there can be blocked with a thin sheet of aluminium. The space capsule was for more than needed.

My math is actually wrong. I should have carried over the units. =1,490 g/liter= 1.49kg/liter

>>37884 >Those Chinese batteries are using Beta particles, high-speed electrons I see. I should have looked into their tech further before even mentioning them, I guess. Thanks, Anon! :^)

>>37842 https://archive.org/details/NASA_NTRS_Archive_19830022057/mode/1up A design document of stirling engine. I think I got interested with stirling engine because of some APU proposal for vehicles, say if you want to sleep in car with ac on or run other appliances. Car engine near idle is not quiet or efficient.

>>37887 Excellent! Thanks, Anon. This seems like a pretty-extensive technical document. Do you know if any manufacturers ran with this and are producing high-efficiency, smol Stirling Engines today that might be of real benefit to us with our robowaifus operating in remote regions?

>>37860 Thermoelectric modules can be used for silent cooling, but you will need radiators. One idea I had before is using water cooling through the skin, so the Robowaifu will be warm to the touch. Thermoelectric modules can definitely help with the heat transfer needed for that. You get to have a faster AI Waifu on an overclocked, and she gets to be warm to the touch. Win win!

>>37894 This sounds like a great idea, Anon. I hope one of us can look into this soon. If needed, I'll probably look into it in a year or two. Cheers. >ps. That is a great pic of the 'flying fairy waifu'. I think she'd make a fantastic target design goal for dear Galatea! :D

>>37887 >stirling engine I really love Stirling engines but...after looking around a Ericsson Cycle seems better. It has higher efficiency at the disadvantage of a couple valves. These help in your regenerator/economizer. It's damn hard to make a Stirling work well. Ericsson Cycle I think would be far easier. This paper is on gas plants but it talks about the cycle and how it can be much higher efficiency. You can search for the cycle and get lots more data Ericsson Cycle Gas Turbine Powerplants https://www.rand.org/pubs/reports/R2327.html The real problem with these hot air engines is...air. Air doesn't conduct heat well so each cycle doesn't carry much power per cycle. Add to that they generally are slow so you don't have high throughput and you get a big ass engine with low power. Great for some things but not so good to move around. I keep thinking maybe some day I'll have an epiphany and figure out some sort of fast rotary Erickson but...fat chance. I think turbines like in the paper are difficult for me to do.

>>37887 I think last time major manufacturer were serious about stirling engine was in the 50s with philips mp1002. No serious attemps since then. https://youtu.be/aG4H_KT4L7I?si=xFXYyx5WMJYZrSRP >>37900 Interesting ericsson cycle. I haven't hear about it before. The benefit of air is that it is good old reliable. No worry about freezing, inclusions, working at right boiling points. 2 phase working fluid will always have a range which and not much can be doen about it outdoor. You can have steam, or air. Anything else is nice but won't survive or be servicable on the long term. The nature is full of dried solid fuel to burn because fungi and other dentrivore takes forever to break down and still not fully digest the cellulose before it is buried by other decaying matters. It doesn't take major horsepower to have the comfort of civilization in the wild and Low power can be mitigated by it can be turned on all the time. One doesn't need more than 1hp to make oneself comfortable in the wild. Many shopstanding tools are run by .5 hp motor and those are serious power that replaced manual labor. Having a mobile stove that provides constant power for fanning air to dry or cool, lights, radio, winch power, collecting and processing wood and food, heating human, water and food, while making charcoals and ashes without needing to stop is a dream few dare to think of. Here I present you the ruralrobo"waifu", Stove SP. Other than having shoulders broader than a door frame and branch breaking arms, she is perfect for outdoor.

>>37900 Sounds impressive! Also sounds expensive >"...1500' temps during the final compressor stages." Regardless, this should certainly be something we can explore in the future. BTW, can some other Anon post the linked study report pdf ITT? Don't want it getting memory-hole'd on us! TIA. Cheers. :^)

>>37912 >vid-related <100Wlight+45Wradio+impedance/etc. losses... I bet it could pump out 300+ Watts w/ a modern generator (sauce: my a*rse). That's encouraging, Anon. Thanks! I also liked that he gave us 4 views of the thing in operations. Looks like it was running on gasoline or some other hydrocarbon fuel. Any chance the actual engineering blueprints for this Philips Stirling Engine are available anywhere, that we could post here, then study together? <---> >that sketch Based Franklin-Stirling Stove robo-Bro is based!! :D Very nice one, Anon. Cheers. <now, we just need to teach dear Mina-chan to brew up some Cowboy Coffee for Anon within her belly!

>>37912 I should be a little more specific about Stirling cycles. The problem is it's almost impossible to get the phasing between the hot end and the cold in exactly right. Since they are open you are relying on pressure reflections and other exotic means to get optimum results. Ericsson cycle has valves so you can get constant heat expansion at the same temperature or something like that. And no do not understand exactly why this matters but it does. For some reason people seem to think having a couple of valves is sort sort of terrible deficit but I see it that way. There's a class of turbines that use CO2 I wonder of you could make an Ericsson cycle with that and make it smaller? The heat exchanges are smaller on these types and you can get hotter temperatures than steam.

>>37915 >1500' temps You can do this with ordinary stainless steel I think. Once you get to 1,700-1,800 the cost go up.

Look at this site he has a to of Stirling motors most made of trash https://www.youtube.com/@ManualdoMotorStirling

>>37920 Fair enough. But that seems a fairly exotic temp range to be managing for a complete novice at this. Perhaps we should start smol, grow big instead here, Anon? :^) >>37922 Neat! That's quite encouraging. I was beginning to wonder if it was going to be literally impossible for amateurs to build these things, given your post here : ( >>37919 ) (well, that and the fact there are [apparently] no commercial vendors of the things today [I would have expected dozens of them by now since the '50s]). But it looks like we can after all! Cheers, Grommet. :^)

>>37919 probably, but super critical co2 is 300+ times the atmosphere that periodically frags a chinese phd student.

>>37933 Good point.

Turn weaknesses into strengths: Batteries are quite heavy. So use them for counterweights in designs.

>>38276 Good idea, Anon. @Kiwi was promoting a 'swinging, inverted pendulum' counterweight balance system for natural bipedal gaits here on the board. Your idea of using the dense batteries for such a mass-as-pendulum is a good one. Cheers, GreerTech. :^)