/robowaifu/ - DIY Robot Wives

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Batteries & Power Robowaifu Technician 09/09/2019 (Mon) 06:21:14 No.23
Robowaifus will need power to run, and since they will be mobile this means a mobile power system too. ITT post info on batteries and other mobility capable power systems. --- > related-thread : (>>5080) >=== -add crosslink
Edited last time by Chobitsu on 08/18/2023 (Fri) 22:45:53.
>related xpost (>>10663)
>related xpost (>>10729)
Hydrogen is promoted by some Anons but it's worse than good batteries in terms of conversion efficiency, and much worse in terms of convenience and expense (at least in the scale of a single robowaifu's on-board power systems). But if you're interested in it, here's an interesting post on the topic. https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2018/05/08/what-are-the-pros-and-cons-of-using-hydrogen-to-generate-electricity/
I've been developing and building a direct ethanol/methanol fuel cell. Not specifically for this application, but it would work good I think.
>>14265 Cool. From the scratch or with some kit? If it's your own design, will you publish it on some website or will you make it into a product? How is the patent situation actually? These girls a few years ago got threatended with legal action if they try to make a product out of theirs. Just looked into it for a moment, some of such fuel cells are available for sale. Nice, good to know, but if at all then I'll need it in maybe two or three years or so. If anything, this will be some additional gimmick to a high-end luxury robowaifu, since these current commercial development kits seem to cost 1800$ while providing 400mW at less than a volt, lol. https://www.fuelcellstore.com/dmfc-flex-stak
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>>14267 Okay, but this looks much more promising: https://youtu.be/s4T3Oj9w0dk - 50W, 12-24V, needs a bit more than a liter fuel per hour. It's still too big, but not that much to make me loose hope. This guy here also made a small direct ethanol fuel cell. His video is in Italian, but he comments in English as well and seems to know about different options how to get there. He has more explainer videos up. Personally, I just hope for some product in form of a kit. As I wrote above, I'll only need that in two years or so.
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I don't know much about fuel cells and I'm not going to pretend that I do, but I realized that one idea I've been thinking about might produce oxygen and hydrogen mixed together with other potentially flammable gases. Rather than flaming-burps or trying to fit a small gas engine in there, is there a way I could use it with a fuel cell, or is burning it my only option?
>>14273 Your idea and question is rather vague. What other gases? Just look up what kinds of fuel cells exist. However, don't try to do everything differently. Don't try to reinvent the wheel. We are only a few guys here. We don't need to invent everything which we might use, let others do that, for other use cases. We only need to find out about it, and then adjust it to our use case if necessary. Batteries will be fine for many use cases. Lightweight waifus won't need much energy. Wheels reduce the amount of power needed to move around. External vehicles are another solution. Heavier waifus might be plugged in, after moving from one place to another. This heavier model will most likely have water and alcohol inside for heat distribution and cleaning, this is why a direct ethanol fuel cell might make sense.
>>14273 Anything that has an emission will damage you or your robowaifu. Ethanol fuel emissions are still poisonous unlike what the retards from earlier claim. They are essentially telling anons that they should let their car engine run while in their living space.
>>14279 >Ethanol fuel emissions are still poisonous There are not gaseous emissions with a direct ethanol fuel cell. The water involved becomes more acidic, if I recall it correctly. So, it's not like a car engine. >>14296 Fascinating. My uncalled advice is, to find something more helpful to work on. It seems to be complex, messy and inefficient.
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>>14296 >>14301 Lol. I (quite appropriately, I might add) will be moving your posts into shitposting-central soon. The topic of human (or other biological) digestion systems is certainly an issue to be addressed by the men thinking about this topic, and contributing into our biological thread. Certainly, there are many complex topics that necessarily come up when one decides to intentionally introduce biology into a robowaifu system. And the general topic of management of microbiological infestations presence on/within our robowaifus is something serious that needs to be addressed by very smart men here as well. Obviously her master's sanitation will be an issue for a robowaifu, and perhaps you'd be able to contribute to the protocols involved with reigning-in issues there? But, plainly, these posts indicates you'll be far more comfortable discussing this topic generally & specifically from within the warm, comforting environs of our mini-/b/, well-suited to this topic in general. Maybe from there you can explain effectively for us all what the directors who created these humorous mangos/animus that involve the purely-non-living robowaifus drinking/eating were thinking? :^)
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>>14302 The only reason I even brought it up was because of >>14277 asking what other gases would be involved because I was curious about burning gases for power. I already mentioned the electrolysis creating hydrogen and oxygen, regular humid air, hydrogen chloride, carbon monoxide, and presumably methane. I explained the process I was thinking about because genuinely don't know what other gases might be produced. If I did go through with this, I have some ideas of burning the gas to produce heat, and converting the heat into power. (another reason for the circulatory system) If there's any ideas for a more direct method of getting power, I'd like to hear it.
>>14304 yes, the infamous holzgas generator this was popular in vehicles back in the 40s due to war rationing you can find it mentioned in the nuremburg trials as this was (((their))) official story for decades before they abandoned that story and went with the insecticide zyklon b after people forgot what delousing was
>>14305 Or just a regular modern catalytic converter. I already assumed that the guy who wanted to make an ethanol fuel cell was also going to use a catalyst to deal with the carbon monoxide and other fumes, so I didn't think what I was saying was that weird.
>>14304 Heh, I'm simply joking about the topic itself--as portrayed by your posts. Very /b/-tropic. >If there's any ideas for a more direct method of getting power, I'd like to hear it. I would suggest that not only are electro-mechanical systems based on electrical motors significantly more efficient at delivering Watts directly where they are needed, but direct cabling for electricity straight into the robowaifu is a pretty direct method of getting direct current directly into the system. This form of directly getting power into a robot is still fairly commonplace in robo-prototyping labs. Our direct goal ofc, is to directly place direct-current batteries directly near our direct-current electrical motors, afaict. :^)
>>14302 This whole recent discussion seem to be based on BS. This questionable claim >>14265 starting it, was never fleshed out. - That's already suspicious - Then this seems to be trolling by acting to be stupid or new: >>14273 and >>14279 - And here >>14305 we're back to the Nazis. I made the more productive postings here, and still wouldn't care if the whole discussion would get moved over into the Basement. The biology thread doesn't deserve this nonsense. Discussion on digestion as an option would be fine, but it's a very awkward and special way to go, unless you want to live in a dark rainforest and having your waifu eating plants and animals. Based on that, discusions on that topic should imo generally getting cut down to the more serious appearing postings.
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>>14307 I already made the only contribution I have to make on the subject of energy storage here >>5080 and I'm not sure if I mentioned it elsewhere, but I once saw a low-resolution concept digital camera that used solar cells. As far as long-term power storage goes, you can't really get much better than generic lead-acid when they're used right.
>>791 This is going to be hilarious in application but it is entirely possible to turn used vegetable oil, rapeseed oil and canola oil into diesel fuel. I'm not sure how that'd work outside of a combustion engine but if we're talking about fuel from food that's the closest I can think of next to giving them a natural "septic tank" style stomach that comes complete with a micro biome and some sort of way to extract the energy out of it like a real stomach.
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>>14320 >it is entirely possible to turn used vegetable oil, rapeseed oil and canola oil into diesel fuel Those things are also flammable entirely on their own, we typically don't use them as fuel because they're not as energy dense. I think it makes more sense to try to use them as they are to produce energy than to take up more space with a microbrewery to convert them to another fuel.
>>14320 >Plant oil >some sort of way to extract the energy out of it Please just stop. There's nothing to improve or resolve here. Otherwise, buy some lab equipment on Ebay and go to work, or at least provide some idea how this is going to work and a reason why it is better than the existing alternatives
> power wiring conversation -related: (>>22057, ...)
Potential improvements in driving battery costs down? www.zerohedge.com/markets/mxene-related-stocks-soar-after-korean-scientists-claim-breakthrough-new-mass-production
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2023/08/catl-m3p-battery-is-sodium-ion-chemistry-catl-tsla.html They have these sodium batteries right now for cars. They are mixing them with lithium-ion for peak current as sodium doesn't push as much. Eventually the price of these has to plummet. The active material is salt. I guess it depends on how well they have patented it and if someone can make something that gets around their patents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery The guy that invented the lithium-ion battery in it's present form and made it a contender has, he says, a solid state battery that can use potassium, sodium or lithium and gets high power output and low weight. Now people are skeptical, but most people who know about such things said that if it was anyone else they wouldn't believe it but him, he's the Master and a major genius at batteries so they can hardly say they know he hasn't done it. Now this was a good while ago so I don't know what happened with that.
>>24695 Neat. Thanks Grommet! Let's hope your prediction is correct. Salt is clearly a very abundant, cheap material to use in manufacturing. If it can prove to be a reliable source of energy storage in an economical form, then that would change many things. Cheers. :^)
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I've been looking at different power solutions. The easiest is lithium ion batteries. I mean it's most convenient and the electronics to deal with them are prevalent. But compare them to other tech and, they suck. Really bad. Expensive, they suck. Laying out the requirements. Somewhere on the board, can't find the link, I did a quick, very dirty, cost accounting. I did save the numbers though. ""...Normal human metabolism produces heat at a basal metabolic rate of around 80 watts..." (Note: Heat not work.) "...Over an 8-hour work shift, an average, healthy, well-fed and motivated manual laborer may sustain an output of around 75 watts of power...." "...During a bicycle race, an elite cyclist can produce close to 400 watts of mechanical power over an hour and in short bursts over double that—1000 to 1100 watts.... An adult of good fitness is more likely to average between 50 and 150 watts for an hour of vigorous exercise. Athlete human performance peak power, but only for seconds, 2,000Watts..." For reference a good horse working at a good constant rate works at 746 Watts. Let's say you need 400 watts for 2 hours a day then normal moving about at 100 Watts a hour with 7 hours for recharge at zero watts, We need 2 x 400W/h + 17 x 100W/h = 800w/h + 1,700W/h = 2,500W/h per day Some battery prices found on ebay at random. SANYO UR18650ZTA Li-ion batteries SANYO, 11 Wh, 3000 mAh, 3.7V maximum discharge rate of these batteries is 5.8A Total batteries needed at above rate = 2,500W/h per day/11.1W/h per battery = 225 batteries, @ $20 for ten = $450.45" So batteries are THE BIGGEST cost driver, I believe. I think there's a good possibility we can drive down the cost of actuators with a lot of thought and some experimentation. Especially if we use switched reluctance type actuators because they are only iron and some copper wire, and MOSFET drivers for these are super cheap. Look at the picture I uploaded and look at the energy density of Li-ion. Way, way, way down on the bottom left at damn near nothing. Pathetic. I've been looking at ethanol fuel cells. And I thought li-ion was expensive! These things are outrageous and I see no quick way anyone has found to do much better. Is there a better way? Maybe.? I had an idea. I'm not the only one that has this idea, sort of, because others were asking somewhat the same sort of thing. NASA even has a sort of program on it. Tiny jet engines. HyTEC https://www.nasa.gov/aeroresearch/updates-from-nasas-hytec-engine-core-project-show-progress I think there's a better way though. They want something very much like a regular jet engine but smaller. Now if you go back to Elon Musk ideas one of his principles is, Step one: Make the requirements less dumb So we're not trying to make some sophisticated turbine. We just want some cheap power. And it doesn't have to be super light weight. So we are going to have to have some batteries and likely some super capacitors for small period, maybe 2-4 sec. peak power. Not a problem. Affordable for short peak power but the long term stuff, expensive. What if we drove the compressor of the turbine with an electric motor instead of with a turbine that is in the hot section of the engine. Normal jet engines have a fan blown by the burning fuel connected with a shaft or gears to run the compressor. Very complicated. Very expensive. So now we only have thrust from the burning fuel. Now let's simplify this even more. Make the exhaust a rocket motor. Rockets are very efficient. So you make a nozzle and then connect to a rotating bearing and thrust it in a circle and it is connected to a generator. So it makes power to charge the batteries and run the compressor. If we use ethanol look at the stupendous amount of energy from burning ethanol compared to Li-ion batteries. Li-ion is something like 1 M-joule per liter and 1 M-joule/Kg. Pitiful. Ethanol is way more, around 25 times higher at 25MJoules/liter and 30Mjoules/Kg. Now here's where Musk requirements idea comes in. We could make a perfectly shit, very inefficient jet engine. Practically worthless and still whip the shit out of Li-ion efficiency and cost. At 5% efficiency we still get to 1.25Mj/liter. Beating the batteries. Exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about has been done before. They used tip jets to spin a huge rotor for a gyroplane. It wasn't efficient but only worked for a short time to take off. They could have made this work but it was after WWII. The British were broke and killed it before they could work out some problems they had. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Rotodyne Anyways just an idea. Of course getting this to work would be much harder than just hooking up some batteries. But long term it would be extremely cheap. Only a small amount of the jet would need expensive stainless steel, which is not all that expensive, and would be less than the amount in an aluminium drink can.
>>24697 how much engi time do you think it would take to develop this to a satisfactory level? and how loud is supposed to be the final result?, cause turbines arez rarely quiet
>>14332 can't we just make the microbrewery external, like a charging station or something?
>>24698 >how much engi time do you think it would take to develop this to a satisfactory level? I don't know but people are certainly doing it. This is just one. There's many. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ7gArNmqK0 https://hackaday.com/2018/12/07/building-the-worlds-smallest-jet-turbine-by-hand/
>>24697 >Total batteries needed at above rate = 2,500W/h per day/11.1W/h per battery = 225 batteries, @ $20 for ten = $450.45" Heh, that's rather a surprising figure. Good investigative work Grommet. >So batteries are THE BIGGEST cost driver, I believe. Actually, it's the actuators. By far since we're planning to give the software -- certainly the most expensive 'part' in the end -- away for free. We are all probably looking at ~US$5K+ for them in a moderate setup for a life-sized (145cm+) robowaifu r/n. This is the primary impetus behind the more sophisticated design approaches that Kiwi and myself are attempting here. To wit: keep the skeletal, shell, and [everything else]'s mass down, and you can (potentially) significantly reduce the actuation power needed to motivate the dynamics of your robowaifu's systems (make her move) : (>>4313). This could effectively cut the actuation costs down by half (or more), all the while making her more nimble and pleasing, humanly-speaking. This cost factor is also my own primary motivator for attempting to devise opensauce actuator winding-systems so Anon can create his own, saving even more on costs (with scale). While I really appreciate your points Anon, simply put I don't think there are any other reasonable alternatives to us for mobile power contained within our robowaifu's bodies than batteries. If that's in fact the case, then the onus is on us all to devise the best compromise between cost+weight+power-density+QoL-aesthetics . R/n that best compromise means Li-ion batteries. Hopefully, better, lighter, cheaper solutions will be discovered in the future but for now I believe that's our best choice hands-down. Thankfully, scientists & engineers the world over currently are aggressively pursuing research into newer electrical power storage systems. So who knows? We may see some major breakthroughs soon. Thanks for these good posts and for all your creative, out-of-the-box thinking Anon! >"Somewhere on the board, can't find the link, I did a quick, very dirty, cost accounting." BTW, if you can think of good keywords then you might use Waifusearch (>>8678) to help you find them? Cheers. :^) >=== -prose edit
Edited last time by Chobitsu on 08/19/2023 (Sat) 18:45:14.
>>24701 So cool. I wish I'd had these as a child haha! :D
>>24699 >can't we just make the microbrewery external, like a charging station or something? Yes I think that's on-point Anon. Most any kind of reasonable 'power-generation system' for our robowaifus needs to be external. This is very much in line with the same reasons that any future artifical womb systems will also need to be so, such as tabletop systems. > pic related
>>24708 >pic related
You guys exaggerate the power needs of this thing really. Raspberry pi and servo motors are like around 5 volts for the mini ones ones which is like 1 lithium battery and 1 regular battery. The big motors is 12 volts each maybe. 3 lithium batteries each and so on. It's not a big deal. We'll see how many batteries are needed in the end. >But they won't last long Doesn't matter it's supposed to be a house bot for the most part.
>>24709 Well-played. :DDD >>24711 >You guys exaggerate the power needs of this thing really. I'm not really trying to debate you here Anon -- believe me, I'd be ecstatic if you can prove us all wrong -- but I think the reality of this situation is that we are not only not exaggerating the power requirements... we're actually low-balling them out of optimistic hope! :^) Our optimism is based on the efforts to minimize the mass of everything. By doing this we significantly reduce the so-called 'thrown-weight' (and therefore the inertial moments) of the 'levers' that constitute a robowaifu's arms, legs, &tc. Dear Kibo-chan (>>24608), and Poppy (>>24531) are somewhat reasonable approaches today specifically because they are smol (that is, short) and lightweight. This is just the same approach I mean to take advantage of for Sumomo-chan (>>14409) also. Well and good, such as they are (ie, headpat daughterus). But once we begin scaling robowaifu designs up to life-sized dimensions (145cm+) then strange things begin happening with the physics involved. This phenomenon is known as the Square-Cube Law [1], and has been well-understood for centuries. >tl;dr The power (Amps, not Volts) required to make a fully-loaded, realworld robowaifu move around, all day erry day, is probably more than you may think r/n Anon. But together I hope we'll all find a way to greatly reduce this requirement. May God give us good success with that, and every other one of the many dozens of things that all need to be solved here! Cheers. :^) 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square%E2%80%93cube_law >=== -patch crosslinks -prose edit
Edited last time by Chobitsu on 08/19/2023 (Sat) 21:10:52.
>>24714 Oh no you're right. Bard says a high torque 12v motor might require a 100 ah battery which are quiet different... Something like this per big motor maybe. I don't like relying on bard though, it often times gives the wrong answer. If someone here knows how many ah is required to power a high torque 12 volts motor for say 6 hours that'd be great and again I got the 12 volts estimate from bard too so...
>>24714 >we're actually low-balling them out of optimistic hope! :^) I would have to agree. Even if our wildest dreams about the ability of AI to become faster (lees power needed) you're still going to need a reasonably fast processor to have a life like waifu. That's what I'm measuring. Not something that can walk a few feet and lay around. Even if it lays around, if you want to talk to it or have it pay attention...fast mobile processors are running at 35-40 Watts and reasonable desktops at 80-150 watts. It's a lot of power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CPU_power_dissipation_figures
>>24717 >how many ah is required to power a high torque 12 volts motor for say 6 hours that'd be great and again I got the 12 volts estimate from bard too so... There are formulas for that you can find on the web and probably in this thread. It depends on what you mean by "high torque 12 volts motor". Also, it depends on the workload. Six hours with barely any load, just changing positions on a coach, is not the same as her walking around using it. It's a mistake to assume you could build a waifu using that for six freaking hours under full load. My target is 20-30 minutes under full load, maybe just 10-15 minutes. Of course sitting around or doing less would make the power last much longer. Related: >>23782 >>23781
>>24717 just look up the wattage of the engine eg. a 12v 240w engine requires 20a (w=va) per hour if the battery is 12v 100ah it would last 5h ( ah/a )
>>24705 >>So batteries are THE BIGGEST cost driver, I believe. Actually, it's the actuators. By far. We are all probably looking at ~US$5K+ I agree if you say,"let's buy a bunch of motors off the shelf and run our waifu with it right now", but looking at the material cost and building them ourselves I think we can go much lower. Way lower. Vastly lower. I do not have this all worked out but I have some ideas. I think it will be a good while before I can flesh them out. It will take test. One idea I had is for water hydraulics. Now I have blasted hydraulics to death but...there may be a way to get around the high cost of the control valves. Maybe. My ideas right now are so incomplete that it would futile to talk about it. I would get a ton of questions...I can not answer. If you notice I have some whacked ideas and may be wrong but I can usually answer criticisms when I post my ideas. There is some material, logical thought behind them. Maybe some, or a lot, of them are not actionable but I can usually make a case for what I think up. I'm not there yet on actuators yet but I'm thinking on it. The key is the material cost of these things is way lower than what they are selling them for. We must think a better way to arrange them to lower cost. > I don't think there are any other reasonable alternatives to us for mobile power contained within our robowaifu's bodies than batteries. Yes I see that. The ideas for lower cost power mostly reside with the idea that you could get a waifu for $2,000-3,000 dollars. You can't do that with batteries I don't think and have much more than what you can buy in China now. Just a big doll. So when I postulate these wild ass ideas it's only because I'm trying to think of a way around these battery prices. "Hope springs eternal." and it doesn't hurt to think about it.
>>24717 > If someone here knows how many ah is required to power a high torque 12 volts motor for say 6 hours that'd be great I have a few, very rough, estimates on power needed for lifting things and then extrapolated to all day in the actuator thread. Here's one, but ignore my hate of hydraulics, I may have changed my mind on that due to cost. Keep in mind I over estimated a bit because the processor alone will use substantial power any time it moves, talks or listens. >>12014 >>12140 I did some rough cost accounting here and came up with $10,846 for parts alone. It's too high to be profitable for individuals to buy. As has been said before I bet the break point is around $2,000-3,000 with $2.000 being far more desirable. So to make this really work you might need a parts cost of half that or less. Difficult. >>13408 One more that talks about forces needed and what that portends for the amount of power. >>13229 My cost are based on something that would follow simple directions like a dog. Train for your voice for a hour or so. Then have it do stuff like,"move over here", "pick that up", "follow me", "get me a beer". And the always popular,"go to the bedroom". I think if the above could be done for $2,000-3,000 they would sell fairly well. People would take into account the price. Sell upgrades, "orifices" .for maybe $200-300, (I don't think they should be built in for legal and propaganda reasons but be easy to add), and better software and hardware. I think it would at least have to move around without constantly falling over in built areas, like sidewalks, stairs, in houses and do a a little fetching. I think people would be happy with that as a start.
was looking at old crystal radios and it made me think the fact were saturated with so much emf waves might be useful in the future, these early radios didnt use an electricity, not directly at least, the radio waves themselves provided enough electricity to power the speaker so hypothetically you could be constantly charging the battery so long as theres emf waves like from your neighbors wifi, only thing is the power is so small so no idea how your going to push it into a battery that already has a charge pushing back
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Though it's a bit antithetical to this thread, I have to ask: do we really need batteries right now? I've been mulling over the issue on my own time, and it seems that there really isn't any good solution to the mobile power problem at this time. But I don't think we need a solution, at least not straight away. Consider this: what would do with your wife's theoretical mobility if you had her immediately? Not five years from now, but right now. Realistically, there isn't a whole lot she can do outside the house. With our current level of technology, she won't be agile enough to walk on stairs, much less go on nature walks with you. With our current social situation, she really shouldn't be out in public. I believe that the limited benefit of batteries simply doesn't outweigh the cost or added engineering complexity right now. Plus, I can't imagine any of us are really going to stick with the V1 design of our wives forever. Parts break down and better parts release to market, there are many reasons to upgrade in the future. Thus, I think that the battery question should be shelved for the time being. The issue can be revisited in a few years when the technology gets a bit better (or cheaper, if nothing else). As for right now, a cable harness will do the job of delivering power for far cheaper. If you keep her brains in a server (which I will) you can add ethernet cables to the harness to facilitate cheaper, lower latency connections between her controllers and the server compared to WiFi.
This will help determine battery characteristics for a mobile robot. If she walks, triple the power required. https://community.robotshop.com/blog/show/drive-motor-sizing-tool
>>24725 >do we really need batteries right now? ...there isn't a whole lot she can do outside the house That's a good point. Could also see it as, use very limited battery power now with frequent recharge if not plugged in.
>>24722 >I think we can go much lower. Way lower. Vastly lower. I sure hope so Anon! In fact, I'm counting on it. :^) >>24725 You make some good points Anon. I'll give this some serious consideration. >>24732 Thanks!
Please don't take the threat of Li-Ion explosions/fires lightly, Anon. nitter.net/roller2426/status/1572892393791455232 nitter.net/JimNotBob/status/1456705971993169924 >=== -add 2nd link
Edited last time by Chobitsu on 09/12/2023 (Tue) 16:42:04.
News: Yuge Li ore deposit in Burgerland discovered, possibly the largest found on Earth so far. www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adh8183 nypost.com/2023/09/11/lithium-deposit-found-in-us-mcdermitt-caldera/ >=== -add 2nd link -minor edit
Edited last time by Chobitsu on 09/13/2023 (Wed) 10:37:17.
>>25325 Old news, but thanks for the reminder. IF I use Li-Ion at all, then in something like additional belts as external source. The right way to deal with such a fire seems to be wet sand, btw. Difficult in case of a bus, but it should work with a smaller device.
>>14332 >we typically don't use them as fuel because they're not as energy dense We don't use them cause they cost more per liter than gasoline/diesel and used oil is considered worthless waste; same applies for etanol.

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